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Seeking to hire someone to fabricate Zamboni HV battery

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LAN_403

Thu Mar 16 2006, 02:37PM

Banned on April 7, 2007
Registered Member #277 Joined: Fri Mar 03 2006, 10:15AM
Location: Florida
Posts: 157

Carbon:

With regard to the Zamboni battery method of operation, I'd be interested in reading more about the large old style capacitors of which you speak. Can you tell me where to find this info? CM

the_anomaly

Thu Mar 16 2006, 03:14PM

Registered Member #19 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 03:19PM
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 168

He just means that from the background static around them, capacitors will develop a charge over time. Large caps especially high voltage ones generally have bleeder resistors connected to their terminals to dissipate this charge.

mikeselectricstuff

Fri Mar 17 2006, 06:40PM

Registered Member #311 Joined: Sun Mar 12 2006, 08:28PM
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Posts: 253

Nick wrote ...

He just means that from the background static around them, capacitors will develop a charge over time. Large caps especially high voltage ones generally have bleeder resistors connected to their terminals to dissipate this charge.

background static...?
I whould have thought this was more about caps slowly recovering charge due to movement of charge trapped within their dielectric after charge/discharge cycles.

Carbon_Rod

Fri Mar 17 2006, 10:24PM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

Not quite the same thing.

The chemical potential energy of the battery could be slowly charging by the electrostatic potential (instead of being dissipated by a bleeder resister.) If the area is large enough to be exceeding the batteryâ€™s chemical energy decay rate it should recharge by itself over time.

I would guess the chemical energy of the battery could be delivered at a higher reaction rate then a very slow atmospheric phenomenon. I had wondered about harnessing this as an energy source as a kid too. But I found out itâ€™s rather an old idea with obvious practical limits. There have been many battery designs that were inefficient for their size but had â€œinterestingâ€ characteristics. You still see them in small town farm and mining museums.

Btw: Hockey does not have a â€œHalftimeâ€, but is normally played in 3 periods or more. Itâ€™s a gentlemenâ€™s sport where injury or insults are rare. =) grin lol he he he

Zamboni

Fri Apr 30 2010, 01:50PM

Registered Member #2836 Joined: Fri Apr 30 2010, 01:24PM
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Posts: 41

I have made a Zamboni Battery from Mno2 and Zinc dust. I can tell you that it is quite a job. I have gotten as much as 500V per 1000 units. I have not been able to reproduce the thousands of volts that were supposedly produced in the past. I wonder if they were measured correctly, and exactly how they were measured. A regular voltmeter is useless. I used an Electrostatic locater to measure voltage and it is imprecise at best.
I am interested in (and have actually built) a "reproduction" Zamboni device. Eventually I hope to be the World's only supplier of Reproduction Zamboni Devices.

After 3 years of effort, I have built a device that has lasted a mighty 6 months (as of now) and is still going. That is a far cry from the 177 years that the Oxford device has been quietly oscillating, but, to my knowledge I have the only working device in the country. I think that it is a really neat device, I have watched it slowly oscillate in an almost hypnotic fashion. I am hoping that I can duplicate the longevity of the Oxford bell. So far, I have not been able to get my batteries thin enough to get the 2K voltage in about 11 inches of space, like the Oxford device. I am still working on it though and I have patience bordering on obsession.

For the 2 or 3 people in the country who find this sort of thing interesting, I enclose a movie below. Or go to my YouTube clip

Wolfram

Fri Apr 30 2010, 03:42PM

Registered Member #33 Joined: Sat Feb 04 2006, 01:31PM
Location: Norway
Posts: 971

Good job, it's always nice seeing (mostly) forgotten things from the past being brought back by hobbyists.

Unfortunately, the original poster of this thread is long gone, but I think your project deserves its own thread in the "Projects" forum, as I am sure there are people here interested in more details. I know I am.

Anders M.

IntraWinding

Fri Apr 30 2010, 06:56PM

Registered Member #2261 Joined: Mon Aug 03 2009, 01:19AM
Location: London, UK
Posts: 581

Thumbs up from me too

Antonio

Sat May 01 2010, 05:26PM

Registered Member #834 Joined: Tue Jun 12 2007, 10:57PM
Location: Brazil
Posts: 644

I am interested in more details too. It's simple to make a Zamboni pile, but boring. It may be a problem to find adequate modern materials to use. The pendulum shown in the video appears to be torsional. Interesting idea, if not accidental.
To measure the voltage it's possible to use an electrostatic field meter (field-mill) measuring the electric field at the center of a two-plates capacitor. I use the devices shown here (too small pictures):

Manual here:

It's also simple to get or make an electrometer or electroscope with a scale, calibrate it from an adjustable high-voltage power supply (if you have one), and use it to measure the output voltage of the pile. The short-circuit current can be measured with a conventional microamperimeter, but an amplifier may be required, since the current output of these piles is probably well below the uA range.

Zamboni

Sun May 02 2010, 12:37PM

Registered Member #2836 Joined: Fri Apr 30 2010, 01:24PM
Location:
Posts: 41

I was quite surprised to find the construction of the Zamboni referred to as "simple". I must have really missed the boat.

Antonio,I hope you won't mind a few questions. I don't think that you realize that what you accomplished is a great achievment. I can tell you from personal experience that while Zamboni piles may sound easy to construct, they are actually quite difficult.

Please entertain a few questions.
1. In your prototype, how you able to get the 2KV in 10 inches of battery length?
2. What concentrations of what chemicals you use?
3. What kind of foil?
4. What voltage did you achieve, in what length pile?
5. How did you overcome the problem of stacking multiple batteries together without losing any voltage in the stacking process?
6. How long did your pile retain peak voltage?

I feel a bit foolish for rejoicing in my measly 5-7 hundred volts in 10 inches of pile.
I assure you, you have accomplished what the best minds only dream of. During WW2, they were unable to duplicate the 2KV that was achieved by the Oxford Electric Bell.

I think you are bieng very modest as I have not seen any part of the construction that was anything other than complicated. I found the construction of the pile to be rather like running a marathon. Sure, stacking one battery upon another was easy, just like a single step when you are running, but, running 26 miles is very hard.

Most people find that when they stack 1000 batteries together, the voltage falls rapidly. The British used stacks of 800 batteries to get a max of 575 volts. They had to link 8 piles together to get the 3-4Kv that they needed to run the night vision equipment. The British also found that the piles didn't retain the voltage very long. Nowhere near the 177 years that the Oxford Electric Bell has retained it's voltage.

Please share your wisdom and experience.

Yours truly.
Paul

Antonio

Sun May 02 2010, 01:36PM

Registered Member #834 Joined: Tue Jun 12 2007, 10:57PM
Location: Brazil
Posts: 644

Where I said that I made one? I have a lot of experience with electrostatics, and surely know how to measure voltages at extremely high impedance and very small currents. I have read most of the old papers about Zamboni and de Luc batteries, however.

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