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WaveRider

Thu Jun 30 2016, 12:26PM

Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500

It is a funny mural that pays homage to the Russian artist Dmitri Vrubel who painted this image of Erich Honecker and Leonid Brezhnev in loving embrace on the Berlin Wall. (Photo from

)

Dr. Slack

Fri Jul 01 2016, 11:53AM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

Well that's the UK's right wing party ditched the blond buffoon who threatened to become leader. Is the US right wing party going to do the same anytime soon?

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Sat Jul 02 2016, 12:09AM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

The RNC is not embracing Trump. The RNC cannot control Trump.

What is a "right winger?" Is that a bible thumper? A member of the Klan? Or just any white person that votes Republican because we want to see the Rule of Law and Constitution restored to this country? I'd like to know.

paris

Sat Jul 02 2016, 12:56AM

Registered Member #3042 Joined: Wed Jul 28 2010, 12:36AM
Location:
Posts: 121

its cheaper to buy so called NZ butter or "milk" in europe than it is right here in NZ !!
globalisation has pulled the plug on everyone

WaveRider

Sat Jul 02 2016, 08:59AM

Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500

Hazmatt, you ask a very good question. We can go further and ask what the "right wing" and "left wing" labels mean at all. Case in point: Trump has endorsed at various times ideas that could be either left-wing (anti-globalization, anti-war, etc.) or right wing (nativism, racism, sexism).

I believe the danger does not lie in whether someone is right wing or left wing in the traditional sense, but in the mindless mass-movement populism that risks degenerating into totalitarianism. Keep in mind that the great totalitarianisms of the 20th century embodied ideas from both left and right. Even the USA flirted with it (check out the history of Huey Long in the 1930s). Mass movements appeal to the tribalism of human nature, and if they take hold, are exceedingly dangerous to democracy..which only works when people are thinking and participating as rational citizens.

Again, we can thank the Reagan-Thatcher "revolution" of the 1980s that atomized society to such an extent that much of the citizenry feels it has little to lose. Hence, they become willing to sacrifice themselves for a leader and a "movement" (Trump, Sanders or anyone who can tap into the discontent).

Whatever one thinks of Pres. Obama, he has much in common with the last of the "Good Emperors" of ancient Rome: Marcus Aurelius; a stoic demeanor, moderation, intellect and a "reign" of constant war. Who will be the USA's Commodus?

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Sat Jul 02 2016, 02:31PM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

Here in the US I think the labels are a little different.

Left wing = do whatever you feel makes you happy, pretty much anarchy at that point

Right wing = Christian values, reads Bible every night, has a gun, strong faith in Constitution and due process

I am not a Christian or religious really by any measure, but I am a Republican because of what I see in the values.
I am standing somewhere in the middle.

You mention Obama as an Emperor, that is exactly the problem. We LEFT Europe because we wanted due process for ALL.
We are not a monarchy, or a totalitarian dictatorship, we are a representative republic and the Presidential powers HAVE limitations.
Obama has exceeded his reach and there is no one prosecuting him for it. There is no due process, and our system has been broken internally
on purpose, this is all Alinsky, Piven and Cline tactical manuvering, but that's a whole different story.

I hop over your border and demand free everything for the rest of my life... who pays for it? The Gov't doesn't really pay for anything, it has to
take money from someone to pay for something, so who do they take the money from?
So now were at taking money from the working class and giving it to the non-working class?
what happens when there is no working class?

Left Wing
FDR = Socialist
Woman Chooses when to abort
College is Free
Socialism, Communism
God is dead
Legalize all the drugs
Global trade
We represent Labor (not totally true)
tax everything
wage war in secret
say they help the poor,
nothing has changed in 50 yrs
the Gov't. is here, cradle to grave
no guns
no speech unless the Govt allows
No God
Control
You are not smart enough to run your life

Right Wing
Abraham Lincoln = Republican
You don't get to murder
Teachers and college doesn't run on rainbows, you have to pay
Capitalism
Believe in a God or you go to hell
Legal drugs just means more crime to steal money to buy legal drugs
We should make American products with good quality
We represent Corporations (not totally true)
lower taxes
wage war in public
People need to work hard to better themselves
You're on your own, get your shit together
self protection
Criticism
God is what you believe it to be
Freedom
self determination

The list goes on and on.

WaveRider

Sat Jul 02 2016, 06:04PM

Registered Member #29 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 09:00AM
Location: Hasselt, Belgium
Posts: 500

Hi Hazmatt! Thanks for your long reply.

Just so you know, I am a US citizen living overseas.

Now, some thoughts on your reply.

I think your view highlights the superficial view most of us Americans have about politics. The traditional left as we know it is linked to classical socialism (appearing with the Utopianism of Fourier and ideas of Rousseau, etc.) and later, the ideas of Karl Marx. Your mention of "whatever makes you happy" as a definition of "left" is indeed based in some of these utopian ideas. This is too simple, though. Classical left ideas cover a wide spectrum. Even the founders of the USA wrote "happiness" into their founding documents, so if Americans are to pursue happiness (whatever that is, this is a big philosophical question), the idea of being happy is more than just one from the left. It is a liberal idea. By saying this, i am speaking of classical liberalism, i.e. founded on:
1) Anti monarchical ideas
2) private property
3) Anti clericalism
4) System of laws governing society
5) State ensures the common welfare of citizens
6) in exchange, citizens support the state (taxes, military levies in times of war, etc.)
and many more.

Your lists are really nothing but "hot button" issues that say nothing about ideology. For example, I could be a revolutionary Leninist seeking to overthrow the government. This is a far Left position, but I could exercise my 2nd Amendment right to achieve these ends, no? Another example: I could be a devout Christian who reads the bible every day, spreading the word as an evangelist and be a complete pacifist, a protestor for economic justice and go to jail after smashing nose cones of nuclear missiles. (Google Plowshares movement).

I mentioned Obama as "Emperor" not because it is somehow his fault that the USA is in its present state. The USA was moving from its classical "republican" (in the sense of Republic) values since the end of the Second World War. The "National Security State" that came about was (is ) the result of both Democrat and Republican administrations. Obama is about as far "left" as Richard Nixon was. The degradation of civil society in the USA has more to do with the rise of this national security state apparatus than with any one president. This degradation, keep in mind, took place with the full consent of the electorate. In some ways, what's happening today resembles the disappearance the Roman Republic after the economic and social crisis in Rome at the end of its expansionary period.

Do not think for one minute that if a Republican is in office, it will be any better than under Obama. For real change, there has to be some serious attitude shifts among the US electorate if the USA is to survive in a form recognizable as a constitutional state. There needs to be a shift away from the stupid hot button issues and more serious consideration of constructing well-functioning policy to fix big problems (like immigration, tax policy, economic inequality, gun violence and many more). This means moving away from screaming at each other and "dialoguing". Politics in a democracy is all about compromise, and in a sane world compromise could certainly be found on guns, for example.

I leave you with this non-exhaustive list of political ideologies:
Left:
Stalinism
Leninism
Maoism
Trotskyism
Classical Marxism
Anarcho-syndicalism
Environmental utopianism
Classical socialism
Utopian socialism
Christian utopianism
Classical liberalism
Libertarian socialism
National socialism

Right:
Monarchism
Classical liberalism
Christian utopianism
National socialism
Fascism
Stalinism
Maoism

(Notice the overlap in some ideologies)

Left and right is so much more than "who pays for what and how". We have the same simple-minded arguments here in Europe and I hope people wake up to the fact that it's not the powerless (poor, refugees, etc.), but the so called elites that have sold us out. Don't be fooled. It has always been a successful tactic of the elites to deflect their failings on those below: the poor, the working people and middle class. Republican or democrat, it doesn't matter!

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Sat Jul 02 2016, 06:32PM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

I just really want the law enforced, that's what we're all after ultimately, equal treatment and protection under law.

I am not "all in" for Trump, and I really don't support him either, I am moderate when it comes to my views except when it comes to acts of treason and clear violations of national security policies, which may not be a big part of your job overseas, but in my job, national security is a big deal and I have to follow the policy.

I don't agree with your definitions of the "Right", but that is because from your reference point (like general relativity), they are right of your political views. A monarchy or Fascism are still far left from my point of reference.
In my view, Obama is right of Hitler and Stalin. He would assume power similar to Hitler or Stalin if the Constitution were not preventing him from taking complete control.

But like you say, whether we agree or disagree in our views, or see eye to eye doesn't really matter, what is important is being able to talk about it and see where we all stand, .... therefore making it easy for the left to herd us into groups, label us and control us... HAHAHH as that is their ultimate goal for power and control.

It is unfortunate that we have an entire Spectrum of politics, it makes everything infinitely more complicated.

jpsmith123

Sat Jul 02 2016, 07:36PM

Registered Member #1321 Joined: Sat Feb 16 2008, 03:22AM
Location:
Posts: 843

The U.S. is not a functioning "democracy", nor has it been for a long time. An actual "democracy" cannot exist without features such as transparency and accountability, which essentially don't exist in the U.S.
Thus "presidents" like Obama are no more than political puppet rulers answerable only to the ruling Satanic cult.

hen918

Sat Jul 02 2016, 09:29PM

Registered Member #11591 Joined: Wed Mar 20 2013, 08:20PM
Location: UK
Posts: 556

Put simply: politics are as complicated as people.
You can say whether a very specific idea is right or left but people and organisations have a very broad range of ideas.

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