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4hv.org :: Forums :: Tesla Coils
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Class E? Class E...

Move Thread LAN_403
Sulaiman
Sun Feb 21 2016, 09:35PM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
I don't know if it helps but for simple amateur radio h.f. power amplifiers
IRF510s are popular because they are cheap, have relatively low capacitances,
and I've had them working at 14 MHz (20m).

They are only 100v, 4A cont., 20A peak but would be a cheap intro to h.f. Class-E
cheap enough to blow up a few whilst learning :)
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jdub1581hv
Sun Feb 21 2016, 10:35PM
jdub1581hv Registered Member #55219 Joined: Tue Jun 09 2015, 11:21PM
Location:
Posts: 80
Sulaiman wrote ...

I don't know if it helps but for simple amateur radio h.f. power amplifiers
IRF510s are popular because they are cheap, have relatively low capacitances,
and I've had them working at 14 MHz (20m).

They are only 100v, 4A cont., 20A peak but would be a cheap intro to h.f. Class-E
cheap enough to blow up a few whilst learning :)


And available at RadioShack... lol... my 1st Mosfet :)
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ZakWolf
Tue Feb 23 2016, 02:46AM
ZakWolf Registered Member #3114 Joined: Sat Aug 14 2010, 08:33AM
Location:
Posts: 608
Can I use my sn74hc14 to find the Res frequency of my secondary? Since I dont have a function generator or the money to get a worthwhile one I was wondering if the hex inverter would be able to do the trick.

300khz-~6Mhz sweep ability at 5.6v peak. Connected like this:
1456195007 3114 FT175492 Tesla Coil Tuning Sec


Would that supply an accurate reading? I havent dont much tuning before.

Also Im not this far along in my project yet but I was wondering if there was any good site for how to layout RF boards. From what I have read a good layout can do wonders. I noticed that Link2 just used through hole parts. Just looking for food for thought.
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GrantX
Tue Feb 23 2016, 07:55AM
GrantX Registered Member #4074 Joined: Mon Aug 29 2011, 06:58AM
Location: Australia
Posts: 335
ZakWolf wrote ...

Can I use my sn74hc14 to find the Res frequency of my secondary? Since I dont have a function generator or the money to get a worthwhile one I was wondering if the hex inverter would be able to do the trick.

300khz-~6Mhz sweep ability at 5.6v peak. Connected like this:
1456195007 3114 FT175492 Tesla Coil Tuning Sec


Would that supply an accurate reading? I havent dont much tuning before.

Also Im not this far along in my project yet but I was wondering if there was any good site for how to layout RF boards. From what I have read a good layout can do wonders. I noticed that Link2 just used through hole parts. Just looking for food for thought.
You can set up the 74HC14 as a variable frequency oscillator, which can sweep a rather large frequency range. But for 350kHz all the way to 6MHz the 74AC14 may be needed (the online calculator I found just then for the 74C14 tops out at 2.5MHz if you stay within the recommended values). You may also need a few different sized timing caps, with a switch to select the range you want. With one of the Schmitt gates set up as an oscillator with potentiometer and timing caps, the other 5 gates can be wired in parallel for a bit more current (probably a good idea to include a resistor in series with each output to ensure even current sharing).

This page has the relevant info on the 74C14, including the schematics and calculators for setting up the oscillator: Link2

And this schematic I just found on google images shows roughly how to connect the oscillator to the parallel bank of gates (the gate with pins 3 and 4 is unnecessary and can be included in the parallel bank. Resistors in series with the output of each gate in the parallel bank are advised for current sharing purposes as I said before. Its also a good idea to include a resistor in series with the potentiometer so you can't turn it all the way to 0 Ohms): Link2

That method of tuning seems reasonably accurate. I've had successful measurements by leaving the scope ground and signal-gen ground unconnected, but when using my lower power battery operated signal-gen I had to connect it to the scope ground to get a large enough signal.

As for RF layouts, it kind of depends what construction techniques you want to use or avoid. If you want to have some PCB's made up, a two layer board with generous ground planes and short thick traces will be beneficial. If you want something cheaper and easier, "point-to-point" or "dead-bug" techniques built on a copper ground plane will probably be the easiest to solder. Its mostly all about the shortest possible connections to avoid stray inductance, decoupling caps on all DC rails and shielding or ground planes everywhere possible.

For the handmade approach, these 3 Youtube videos may give you some inspiration:
- Construction and prototyping techniques: Link2
- Building a RF crystal oscillator: Link2
- Building CW transmitter and low pass filter: Link2
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Chris_Knight
Tue Feb 23 2016, 11:38PM
Chris_Knight Registered Member #58280 Joined: Sat Jan 09 2016, 06:48AM
Location:
Posts: 43
What are the guidelines for the RF choke value? I know a recommended core material is type 2 powered iron toroids
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ZakWolf
Wed Feb 24 2016, 12:18AM
ZakWolf Registered Member #3114 Joined: Sat Aug 14 2010, 08:33AM
Location:
Posts: 608
GrantX wrote ...

ZakWolf wrote ...

Can I use my sn74hc14 to find the Res frequency of my secondary? Since I dont have a function generator or the money to get a worthwhile one I was wondering if the hex inverter would be able to do the trick.

300khz-~6Mhz sweep ability at 5.6v peak. Connected like this:
1456195007 3114 FT175492 Tesla Coil Tuning Sec


Would that supply an accurate reading? I havent dont much tuning before.

Also Im not this far along in my project yet but I was wondering if there was any good site for how to layout RF boards. From what I have read a good layout can do wonders. I noticed that Link2 just used through hole parts. Just looking for food for thought.
You can set up the 74HC14 as a variable frequency oscillator, which can sweep a rather large frequency range. But for 350kHz all the way to 6MHz the 74AC14 may be needed (the online calculator I found just then for the 74C14 tops out at 2.5MHz if you stay within the recommended values). You may also need a few different sized timing caps, with a switch to select the range you want. With one of the Schmitt gates set up as an oscillator with potentiometer and timing caps, the other 5 gates can be wired in parallel for a bit more current (probably a good idea to include a resistor in series with each output to ensure even current sharing).

This page has the relevant info on the 74C14, including the schematics and calculators for setting up the oscillator: Link2

And this schematic I just found on google images shows roughly how to connect the oscillator to the parallel bank of gates (the gate with pins 3 and 4 is unnecessary and can be included in the parallel bank. Resistors in series with the output of each gate in the parallel bank are advised for current sharing purposes as I said before. Its also a good idea to include a resistor in series with the potentiometer so you can't turn it all the way to 0 Ohms): Link2

That method of tuning seems reasonably accurate. I've had successful measurements by leaving the scope ground and signal-gen ground unconnected, but when using my lower power battery operated signal-gen I had to connect it to the scope ground to get a large enough signal.

As for RF layouts, it kind of depends what construction techniques you want to use or avoid. If you want to have some PCB's made up, a two layer board with generous ground planes and short thick traces will be beneficial. If you want something cheaper and easier, "point-to-point" or "dead-bug" techniques built on a copper ground plane will probably be the easiest to solder. Its mostly all about the shortest possible connections to avoid stray inductance, decoupling caps on all DC rails and shielding or ground planes everywhere possible.

For the handmade approach, these 3 Youtube videos may give you some inspiration:
- Construction and prototyping techniques: Link2
- Building a RF crystal oscillator: Link2
- Building CW transmitter and low pass filter: Link2

Those videos were perfect you guys are batting 1000.

So I havent settled on a set frequency yet, Whats the trade off of higher Mhz's? I think ball park around 4Mhz will be good. Also read about not having a coil former for the secondary, something about winding it and gluing it then removing the secondary former to reduce losses in the coil former.
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jdub1581hv
Wed Feb 24 2016, 01:00AM
jdub1581hv Registered Member #55219 Joined: Tue Jun 09 2015, 11:21PM
Location:
Posts: 80
ZakWolf wrote ...



Those videos were perfect you guys are batting 1000.

So I havent settled on a set frequency yet, Whats the trade off of higher Mhz's? I think ball park around 4Mhz will be good. Also read about not having a coil former for the secondary, something about winding it and gluing it then removing the secondary former to reduce losses in the coil former.


Being newb myself and having gone through much of this recently...
I think you'll find the higher frequencies are more demanding on your parts. I started with a small coil around 2mhz Fr, and have since built Many resonators to accommodate different circuits and switches (also more wire on 10# spool than I thought {6"x23" coil barely made a dent... lol}) .
An almost surefire setup is using direct 2ndry feedback, or an Antenna/Current transformer on secondary. Makes the drive circuitry much easier (at least for me).

I'd also think that the former will have little effect outside of really high power levels.. A small 4mhz coil should be fine with pvc, cardboard, waterbottles/ plactic containers.
My best performing small coil uses a Metamucil container (roughly 4"dia x 7" of windings .. I used #28 wire, gave me right at 500 turns) with 10"~ arcs (160vdc bus) using a pll driver and single switch.
Resonant Freq is just under 700khz, and about 650khz with an hdd platter for top load.
'Smart Water' are my bottles of choice when looking for cheap and fast, They are tall and straight, and the screw top allows for mounting hdd platters with little modification as well..
But, that's just what I have done and have not had any probs... Other than over powering my switches...

Also the smaller, higher F coils don't like much of a top load, which makes those platters pretty useful..
Also I go wider with former if needing to increase inductance rather than taller ..

Hopefully finishing up my circuit this eve, and I'll post some pics when running well.. and perhaps a family photo of the coils.
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ZakWolf
Wed Feb 24 2016, 06:37AM
ZakWolf Registered Member #3114 Joined: Sat Aug 14 2010, 08:33AM
Location:
Posts: 608
Paralleling MOSFETS ? Link2 The author says "The picture to the right shows a class E RF amplifier consisting of 4 modules of 5 MOSFETs per module. The 4 output transformers can be seen in the background, under a plexiglass sheet added for mechanical stability." Is he stacking the Source to Source, Gate to Gate , and Drain to Drain???
1456295605 3114 FT175492 Classebalanced

1456295605 3114 FT175492 4module


I ask because I plan on using rectified mains and this configuration will help share the current load per FET right ? I was going to use these, FQA11N90 same one the author uses in his circuits. So with the attached circuit I could ad say two FET's per side. Using a GDT to flip phase of the output of course. About to do all my maths and trying to get all my ducks in a row... FML
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jdub1581hv
Wed Feb 24 2016, 05:52PM
jdub1581hv Registered Member #55219 Joined: Tue Jun 09 2015, 11:21PM
Location:
Posts: 80
I have not had to do much paralleling, but I believe you would want to use separate resistors on each gate for load sharing.
I'd try to avoid making it too complex.. More area for fault..

Not sure if you have one, But you could use a MOT for a current limiting ballast.. Put the primary in series before your rectifier..
A variac would be key though.
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ZakWolf
Sat Feb 27 2016, 06:15AM
ZakWolf Registered Member #3114 Joined: Sat Aug 14 2010, 08:33AM
Location:
Posts: 608
Alright, here is a little update on my progress. Planning on making a projects thread after I get a couple things worked out. Then the real building can begin.
Secondary specs: (metric)

1456553666 3114 FT175492 Imag0883 2

1456553695 3114 FT175492 Imag0886

• Size:
o 43.15mm dia.
o 135.74mm tall

• Wire: homemade litz
o 3 strands of 32awg twisted
 .45mm wire dia. with all strands
o 301.64 turns

• Measurements
o 1020uH
o 7.6Ω (DC resistance(tested with multimeter))
o 2.8MHz Resf (measured with scope)
o 3.17pf self-capacitance

• Website calculations: Link2 and Link2
o Assuming the website only calculated one Single wire as the conductor may not be accurate
 56Ω AC ???
 794.19 Qu ???


1456553319 3114 FT175492 Capture 2

1456553319 3114 FT175492 Capture

Questions:
1.How do I calculate or what process determines my RFC for the circuit. I see Richie and Erik both use 47uH. How did they get this value, changing the L of the choke changes how much current is dumped into each cycle right?

2.Shunt capacitors: I read that high quality multi-layer ceramics are used a lot in RF applications. Choosing the right value for a tuned circuit/testing at lower power levels. Can I get like 100pf caps and keep soldering them on to keep the coil in tune.

3.DC blocking cap before the primary, Richie used 100nf and Erik used 47nf. More is better?

After I get this sorted I will make a projects thread and link it to here. Thanks for the help I appreciate it!!

4. Will this MOSFET work Link2 I see this guy always uses them Link2
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