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4hv.org :: Forums :: Tesla Coils
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Tesla coil earthing

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Gregary Boyles
Tue May 09 2017, 06:38AM
Gregary Boyles Registered Member #9039 Joined: Wed Dec 26 2012, 03:31PM
Location: Epping, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 117
Dr. Slack wrote ...

That counterpoise looks great.

From a connector somewhere on that mesh, run a wire to the bottom of your secondary, or the bottom of the secondary I sense current transformer, and to your TC power supply mains ground. If you are going to operate the TC in that position, then a radial out to your garage door would be good. Are there any other significant areas of conductor that either might get hit by streamers or present a large capacitance to the topload (like steel joists above our head out of shot)? If so, run a radial to them as well.

Thinking about a detailed page, maybe three illustrations would do it. On one extreme, a TC operating in the middle of a field, with secondary bottom connected to the ground. On the other, operating inside a Faraday cage, with secondary bottom connected to the floor of the cage. Then a third showing how any real situation is usually somewhere between the two. But always, the plan is to get the current back from things that are capacitively coupled to the topload back to the secondary bottom terminal, without undue inductance, and without producing inadvertent large voltages between innocent bystander conductors.

Depending on your operating position, the real earth may, or may not be, a conductor that has significant capacitive coupling to the topload. If it is, then connect to it by the shortest means, whether that's an earth spike, or your mains protective earth. If it isn't, then forget about it.

The nice thing about a counterpoise is that it's an organising principle, as much as anything. It's a cheap and easy to provide terminal that does have much coupling to the topload, and it's in the right position to connect with a short wire to the secondary, and back to the TC PSU ground. You'd connect any arc target to it as well. Then having done that, you look around. What else does the topload see? Garage door? Radial to that.
So you also connect the steel mesh to the mains ground? Is that correct? If so why do you need to do that as well?
The roof of the garage is consists of steel sheet so I guess that will provide huge capacitance.
The garage door is a steel roller door so I assume you mean a radial connected to the unrolled door......although that is probably small potatoes compared to the area of steel on the roof.
If I set it up in a paddock then I assume I would connect the steel mesh to an earth spike?
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Sulaiman
Tue May 09 2017, 09:06AM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
As you have a steel roof you may want to consider inverting your TC
use the roof as 'earth'
The downside is access to the primary circuitry,

the upside is ......... a frikin TC in the roof !

(no floorspace consumed, a chandalier of lightning etc.)
(I've not tried, just dreamed)
................................................. ................................................
F or the sake of safety, and academic correctness,
I would connect the earth mat to mains earth and an earth rod and the steel roof ... any exposed conductive surfaces.
This will prevent unexpected large potential differences,
e.g. one foot on the concrete, one on the mat, a streamer hits the roof
... what is the current path without earth bonding / will your testicles survive ?
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Gregary Boyles
Tue May 09 2017, 09:23AM
Gregary Boyles Registered Member #9039 Joined: Wed Dec 26 2012, 03:31PM
Location: Epping, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 117
Sulaiman wrote ...

As you have a steel roof you may want to consider inverting your TC
use the roof as 'earth'

The downside is access to the primary circuitry,
the upside is - a frikin TC in the roof !

(no floorspace consumed, a chandalier of lightning etc.)
(I've not tried, just dreamed)
Well actually the two ends are steel and aluminium roller doors, the roof is steel sheet and one side is steel colorbond.....so I suppose it is close to a faraday cage.

Come to think of it the trailer in the garage is steel to so I could just stick the coil on the trailer and use that rather than the plastic grass and mesh (save these for when I set it up in the driveway).

Can you confirm that I also need to connect all this steel to mains earth as well.

Some people say not to do this as it might induce voltage spikes that may damage household electronics. Others say you need to do this.
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Dr. Slack
Tue May 09 2017, 10:16AM
Dr. Slack Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659
Can you confirm that I also need to connect all this steel to mains earth as well

They are already connected to some degree by the capacitance. The question is, do you want to manage that connection, or just let it happen?

The primary is being driven by electronics which are directly coupled (OLTC) or heavily capacitively coupled (if you have an isolation transformer in there) to your mains earth, live and neutral wiring. Consider the secondary bottom terminal (SBT) as your 'star ground', and connect everything to that. However, the distance from the counterpoise to the SBT is pretty small, so it's more convenient to connect to that.

As an exercise in method acting, think of yourself as a piece of charge, leaving the topload in any (or all) directions. What's the first thing you hit? How do you get back to the SBT to complete the circuit? If it involves going through other impedances (a long wire has inductance, an air space between conductors is a capacitor) then it will generate a voltage across that. That's how spikes get into household wiring. Charge lands on a live wire, and if the live has a high impedance to earth at RF, a large voltage is generated live to earth by the RF current flow. That's why (a long time ago, maybe a previous thread) I said have capacitors between live and ground and neutral and ground at your TC power supply. This is to provide a low impedance between these to reduce the voltages launched into the rest of the house wiring.

Your garage would be a Faraday cage if the large conductive elements were all connected together securely. So that would be the case if it turns out you have conductive uprights which the roller door and conductive roof are bonded to. A few radials from the SBT to the bottom of those uprights would be more use than a wire out to a ground spike, would have less inductance. That's assuming you're not going to put a spike through the concrete (which is possible, only needs a small hole and a discretely mounted terminal) which would connect to the ground and your uprights in one go. But that spike in the floor is to connect to your uprights and the conductive layer beneath the concrete, not because it is called 'earth'.

There's nothing special about ground, or the earth, it's just a conductor. If it's near, it's relevant. If it's far, then other conductors are more relevant.
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Gregary Boyles
Tue May 09 2017, 12:44PM
Gregary Boyles Registered Member #9039 Joined: Wed Dec 26 2012, 03:31PM
Location: Epping, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 117
Dr. Slack wrote ...

Can you confirm that I also need to connect all this steel to mains earth as well

They are already connected to some degree by the capacitance. The question is, do you want to manage that connection, or just let it happen?

The primary is being driven by electronics which are directly coupled (OLTC) or heavily capacitively coupled (if you have an isolation transformer in there) to your mains earth, live and neutral wiring. Consider the secondary bottom terminal (SBT) as your 'star ground', and connect everything to that. However, the distance from the counterpoise to the SBT is pretty small, so it's more convenient to connect to that.

As an exercise in method acting, think of yourself as a piece of charge, leaving the topload in any (or all) directions. What's the first thing you hit? How do you get back to the SBT to complete the circuit? If it involves going through other impedances (a long wire has inductance, an air space between conductors is a capacitor) then it will generate a voltage across that. That's how spikes get into household wiring. Charge lands on a live wire, and if the live has a high impedance to earth at RF, a large voltage is generated live to earth by the RF current flow. That's why (a long time ago, maybe a previous thread) I said have capacitors between live and ground and neutral and ground at your TC power supply. This is to provide a low impedance between these to reduce the voltages launched into the rest of the house wiring.

Your garage would be a Faraday cage if the large conductive elements were all connected together securely. So that would be the case if it turns out you have conductive uprights which the roller door and conductive roof are bonded to. A few radials from the SBT to the bottom of those uprights would be more use than a wire out to a ground spike, would have less inductance. That's assuming you're not going to put a spike through the concrete (which is possible, only needs a small hole and a discretely mounted terminal) which would connect to the ground and your uprights in one go. But that spike in the floor is to connect to your uprights and the conductive layer beneath the concrete, not because it is called 'earth'.

There's nothing special about ground, or the earth, it's just a conductor. If it's near, it's relevant. If it's far, then other conductors are more relevant.
I am powering the primary via a transformer - the 3 x MOT device sitting on the saw horses behind the coil and wire mesh.

I am assuming that I would need those capacitors on active and neutral if I was powering the primary from the mains without the transformer?

Out of interest.....what value capacitors would you put on neutral and active?

I am probably a bit safer puting the coil in my metal trailer when it is in the garage actually - further away from the brick wall with the household wiring inside.....inverse square law......

Perhaps I should have done wit it and get some mesh and create a complete faraday cage around it.

The posts in my garage are wood so I would have to run separate radials to the roof, wall and roller doors or else put in a few discrete permanent fence wire connections between the metal roof, wall and roller doors.....and then I would need just one radial to the nearest roller door.
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Gregary Boyles
Wed May 10 2017, 02:06PM
Gregary Boyles Registered Member #9039 Joined: Wed Dec 26 2012, 03:31PM
Location: Epping, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 117
By the way, I have electrically connected the roof and back wall of my garage to the two metal roller doors in the photo above. So I need only run 1 radial to the nearest roller door.

Can't wait to try it out with my MOT power supply.
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