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Registered Member #72
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659
There's not enough in the description in the first link to tell what else the guy has got in the circuit other than the pig, the capacitor, and a 'homebuilt ballast', which could be anything.
In the second link, the description specifies two Lincoln welder transformers in parallel as the ballast. The point about a welding transformer is that it has a large, and controllable (to set the current), leakage inductance, to provide series current limiting to stabilise the negative resistance of the welding arc.
So yes, the series capacitor is resonating out some of the ballast's series inductance. If you have an inductive ballast that cannot be set low enough, then resonating out some of it is a way to set the effective inductance even lower, that would be one valid reason for using a cap.
A problem with using a cap in series to resonate a series inductance is that the overall series impedance drops, so you'll get more current for any given voltage. However, the capacitor and inductor still have their original impedances, so what this means is that the voltage across each increases (the 'resonant rise') to force more current through each. This increase in voltage can be very profound if you do hit actual resonance, and can over-volt the cap. I notice they're using a 100kV cap in both videos, so there should be some margin to allow it to survive.
Just because there's a cap in there doesn't mean it's resonated out all of the ballast inductance. Indeed, if it had, the pig would blow the supply breakers, so this is not equivalent to 'running unballasted'. A useful experiment would be to measure the input current to the pig (you know, measurement rather than guesswork, the thing that scientists do when they want to actually understand something) for different settings of the ballast (one, two in parallel, series) with and without series caps, then we would have a correspondance between current consumption and arc appearance that could be judged.
So why didn't he simply ballast to the current he wanted? Who knows, you ask him. Perhaps he thought (like some people do) that resonance always leads to MOAR POWA, and tried it, without understanding what it was doing. Perhaps he had a 100kV Maxwell and wanted to show it off in a video, I would if I had!
Putting the resonant components either side of a transformer can be self-defeating because transformer saturation will prevent any significant resonant rise.
In any case, fewest series components carrying the current will result in the best efficiency.
Registered Member #61373
Joined: Sat Dec 17 2016, 01:45PM
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 87
Dr. Slack wrote ...
There's not enough in the description in the first link to tell what else the guy has got in the circuit other than the pig, the capacitor, and a 'homebuilt ballast', which could be anything.
In the second link, the description specifies two Lincoln welder transformers in parallel as the ballast. The point about a welding transformer is that it has a large, and controllable (to set the current), leakage inductance, to provide series current limiting to stabilise the negative resistance of the welding arc.
So yes, the series capacitor is resonating out some of the ballast's series inductance. If you have an inductive ballast that cannot be set low enough, then resonating out some of it is a way to set the effective inductance even lower, that would be one valid reason for using a cap.
A problem with using a cap in series to resonate a series inductance is that the overall series impedance drops, so you'll get more current for any given voltage. However, the capacitor and inductor still have their original impedances, so what this means is that the voltage across each increases (the 'resonant rise') to force more current through each. This increase in voltage can be very profound if you do hit actual resonance, and can over-volt the cap. I notice they're using a 100kV cap in both videos, so there should be some margin to allow it to survive.
Just because there's a cap in there doesn't mean it's resonated out all of the ballast inductance. Indeed, if it had, the pig would blow the supply breakers, so this is not equivalent to 'running unballasted'. A useful experiment would be to measure the input current to the pig (you know, measurement rather than guesswork, the thing that scientists do when they want to actually understand something) for different settings of the ballast (one, two in parallel, series) with and without series caps, then we would have a correspondance between current consumption and arc appearance that could be judged.
So why didn't he simply ballast to the current he wanted? Who knows, you ask him. Perhaps he thought (like some people do) that resonance always leads to MOAR POWA, and tried it, without understanding what it was doing. Perhaps he had a 100kV Maxwell and wanted to show it off in a video, I would if I had!
Putting the resonant components either side of a transformer can be self-defeating because transformer saturation will prevent any significant resonant rise.
In any case, fewest series components carrying the current will result in the best efficiency.
In the resonant cap setup vs no caps, why does this happen?:
"Through a homebuilt ballast control panel setup, this setup draws upwards of 150 amps at 240 volts input when the arc is "streched out" near the top of the rails! Without the resonant capacitors in series with the transformers' output, the max current is drawn when the arc starts at the bottom of the rails but gradually decreases until the arc extinguishes at the upper end of the rails."
Does this have something to do with the phase of current and voltage?
I also read that resonance with the inductor and capacitor (secondary side inductor) also "feed" each other a bit, and while boosting secondary voltage/power, require less current flow pulled from the primary coil when the arc starts. This might explain why my MOTS draw less current from the wall with resonant caps alone in series with my secondary coil (no PF cap included). Less current being drawn from the primary would mean less eddy currents/core saturation after the secondary's resonance kicks in, so the MOTS heat up considerably less (I have observed much less heating of my MOTS in this case)--even though output arcs are still boosted significantly. Is this true?
However, the capacitor and inductor still have their original impedances, so what this means is that the voltage across each increases (the 'resonant rise') to force more current through each. This increase in voltage can be very profound if you do hit actual resonance, and can over-volt the cap. I notice they're using a 100kV cap in both videos, so there should be some margin to allow it to survive.
If the voltage of the ballast increases due to resonance, how would that affect the input mains power source?
Registered Member #230
Joined: Tue Feb 21 2006, 08:01PM
Location: Gracefield lower Hutt
Posts: 284
Scotth Its about time you did this for yourself with LTspice it is free. continually asking the same questions in differing ways is tiresome. By doing it yourself in a simulator you only get virtual smoke. When you fully understand what you are doing in the virtual world it is time for real experiments to validate what your virtual world is saying to you
Registered Member #72
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659
Scotth, that's a good suggestion from johnf.
There's nothing like playing with a few ideal components and tracing out the waveforms to get to understand what's going on.
There are a couple of problems with simulating this sort of thing in Spice however. Ideal transformers are easy to do, transformers with saturation are possible, but trickier. For the moment, stick to ideal transformers. Secondly, modelling an arc in full, with the temperature modulated conductivity, is not really possible. Just model it as a resistor, and use a wide range of values to see the range of things that can happen. But you don't need to model either transformers or arcs to see how resonance with Ls and Cs works.
Registered Member #61373
Joined: Sat Dec 17 2016, 01:45PM
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 87
Dr. Slack wrote ...
Scotth, that's a good suggestion from johnf.
There's nothing like playing with a few ideal components and tracing out the waveforms to get to understand what's going on.
There are a couple of problems with simulating this sort of thing in Spice however. Ideal transformers are easy to do, transformers with saturation are possible, but trickier. For the moment, stick to ideal transformers. Secondly, modelling an arc in full, with the temperature modulated conductivity, is not really possible. Just model it as a resistor, and use a wide range of values to see the range of things that can happen. But you don't need to model either transformers or arcs to see how resonance with Ls and Cs works.
I'm still trying to get the hang of LTSpice, but its interesting. Can you explain to me why the arc pulls the most power (from the mains) when the arc is at the top of Jacobs Ladder (transformer pulls more power when the arc gets longer) when the resonant cap is introduced on the secondary; and why the arc pulls the most power at the bottom of the Ladder (pulls less power as the arc gets longer) without the cap?
I believe it pulls the same amps from the mains either way, just opposite of the arc lengths with/without cap on secondary. Thanks.
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