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New Cars With So-called Safety Features.

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Daedronus

Wed Apr 23 2014, 08:13AM

Registered Member #2329 Joined: Tue Sept 01 2009, 08:25AM
Location:
Posts: 370

No, IMHO you can't do the ABS's job. Not humanly possible. Not with the same degree of efficiency.

Patrick

Wed Apr 23 2014, 11:07AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

Daedronus wrote ...

No, IMHO you can't do the ABS's job. Not humanly possible. Not with the same degree of efficiency.

But stop4stuffs' point is that TCS and ABS only cut in when the human driver starts to demand too much of the machine ( due to incompetence, mostly), then the safety features start to step in to keep the driver from losing it all together.

Steve Conner

Wed Apr 23 2014, 11:34AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

F1 drivers are the best drivers in the world, but driver aids like traction control still made them go faster until they were banned. Computers and electronic sensors can always beat human reaction times.

I'm not so sure about driver aids in ordinary road cars. My own car has an "ESP" program for traction and stability control that can be turned off, but even when turned on, it has only kicked in when I deliberately tried to provoke it by doing things that you shouldn't really try on a public road anyway.

Racing is all about pushing everything to the limit, but highways and traffic laws are designed around ordinary human levels of attention and reaction times.

Like most of these systems, the stability control works by using the ABS pump to apply braking to individual wheels. The manual warns that if you lean too hard on the system, it will eventually shut down to avoid burning out the brakes. According to Murphy's law this would happen while hurtling too fast into a tricky corner on the Nurburgring.

Ash Small

Wed Apr 23 2014, 12:12PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

ABS actually increases the time it takes to stop. The whole point of ABS is that the vehicle can still be 'steered'. ABS is primarily designed for circumstances where grip is reduced, for example, driving on ice or snow, and not for the scenario where a kid runs out in front of you requiring you to execute an 'emergency stop', in this situation it actually increases braking time and distance.

When ABS first came out 20 odd years ago I used to argue against it, due to the fact that drivers could become too dependant on it, and in a situation where it failed to work, or the driver was used to it, but was driving a vehicle without it, that driver would not have the 'skill' required to be able to cope without it, although I now rely on it myself in many situations and much prefer vehicles fitted with ABS. (there are a lot of muddy lanes with blind corners around here, although the situation was the same where I lived when I first learned to drive/ride motorcycles).

I'm of the opinion that, as drivers rely more and more on 'lane correction' and 'automatic braking', etc. more and more drivers will tend to 'fall asleep' at the wheel (I'm also not sure how these systems would function on narrow lanes without lane markings and 'blind corners' which the AI would presumably interpret as 'obstacles blocking the road', etc.).

Daedronus

Wed Apr 23 2014, 01:02PM

Registered Member #2329 Joined: Tue Sept 01 2009, 08:25AM
Location:
Posts: 370

ABS keeping the car going in the direction I want it to go is a good thing, even on dry roads, and even in unexpected events, because if you realize you will stop 1/2 meters after the obstacle you needs to start steering to avoid.

This is first hand experience for me, cars parked on high speed roads in blind corners, people stopping unexpectedly, incoming traffic in my lane overtaking in blind corners, cars not giving way and jumping in intersection in front of me.

All unexpected and in all cases I had to brake as hard as I could, while also steering.

I would not drive a car without ABS.

stop4stuff

Wed Apr 23 2014, 06:05PM

Registered Member #64 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:25AM
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 68

Yes, ABS is a good thing, the only car I've ever owned with ABS (imo) saved a girls life, or saved her from injury - basically it was like I mentioned before, wet greasy road, kid ran out, I emergency braked, ABS cut in, she stopped, I steered around her... no harm done.

On the other hand, the best car I ever owned, from a driver's point of view, was a Mk1 VW Polo, 145 tyres, no ABS and not even a servo on the brakes. It was a 'real' driver's car, as hard as I hit the brakes, that's how hard the car stopped. I only ever had one time when the wheels locked under braking and that was because the car was aquaplaning... on 145 tyres! Wasn't an issue though, just eased off the brakes & steered.

When I was learning to drive, in 1985, one of the things my driving instructor said has always stuck with me... 'Always expect the unexpected'... and then in 1997 I was fortunate enough to take a skid control course.

Expecting the unexpected, skid control and having a sixth sense like intuition has saved my skin form being involved in 'numpty' incidents.

Motoring safety aids are great, as long as people don't become dependant on them.

Another thought... how would such systems be tested and verified as safe during something like a UK MOT test?

Paul

Ash Small

Wed Apr 23 2014, 07:29PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

"a new analysis of existing data indicates that, controlling for other factors, airbags are actually associated with slightly increased probability of death in accidents. "

"Airbag saves man, then kills him"

"Airbag Deployment Can Cause 'Hidden' Cardiac Injuries"

"Airbag fatality statistics

From 1990 to 2000, the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration identified 175 fatalities caused by air bags. Most of these (104) have been children, while the rest are adults. About 3.3 million air bag deployments have occurred and the agency estimates more than 6,377 lives saved and countless injuries prevented.[66][68]

A rear-facing infant restraint put in the front seat of a vehicle places an infant's head close to the airbag, which can cause severe head injuries, or death if the airbag deploys. Some modern cars include a switch to disable the front passenger airbag (although not in Australia, where rear-facing child seats are prohibited in the front where an airbag is fitted), in case a child-supporting seat is used there.

In vehicles with side airbags, it is dangerous for occupants to lean against the windows, doors, and pillars, or to place objects between themselves and the side of the vehicle. Articles hung from a vehicle's clothes hanger hooks can be hazardous if the vehicle's side curtain airbags deploy.[69] A seat-mounted airbag may also cause internal injury if the occupant leans against the door.[70][71]"

And there are plenty more such reports on the internet.

Steve Conner

Thu Apr 24 2014, 12:13PM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

You can find evidence on the internet to support any point of view you might subscribe to. So the real question is, what do you personally have against airbags?

Ash Small

Thu Apr 24 2014, 01:20PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Steve Conner wrote ...

You can find evidence on the internet to support any point of view you might subscribe to. So the real question is, what do you personally have against airbags?

Well nothing, but the OP stated "what if the safety feature kills more people then it saves?".

The first link in my previous post claims that "airbags are actually associated with slightly increased probability of death in accidents."

I'm not arguing that it's true, but if it is then it's an example of just the point that Patrick was asking.

Do we, and the 'lawmakers' place too much credibility on the claims of manufacturers?

Daedronus

Thu Apr 24 2014, 01:52PM

Registered Member #2329 Joined: Tue Sept 01 2009, 08:25AM
Location:
Posts: 370

3.3 milion deployments and 175 cases where something went wrong...Would you drop the feature or try to improve it?
Personally I'm all for dumb features like ABS or Airbags, properly implemented.

But, please, don't try to make the car smart, each of my 3 cats it's far smarter then all the AIs we have ever made, in particular at dealing with real life situations.

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