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4hv.org :: Forums :: Electromagnetic Radiation
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most efficient 80m antenna?

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Move Thread LAN_403
Proud Mary
Wed Apr 11 2012, 01:38PM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
A long wire antenna made of 'magnet wire' - i.e. enamelled copper wire, will work well, if it is thick enough and strong enough and resilient enough, though I wouldn't recommend it. But if it's all you can get just now, it will work for you in the short term.

As for your superregen, just connect the antenna directly to it for the moment. You'll get better results if you have an Antenna Tuning Unit (ATU), between the receiver and the antenna, but this is by no means necessary to start off with.

The EL84 power-oscillator transmitter design is truly awful, Alf, for the following reasons:

1.) In the key-up position, you will have HT on the key itself. This kind of dangerous cathode keying is not acceptable.

2.) Oscillator cathode keying will cause chirp. Chirp is a condition where the oscillator takes a small time to find its feet and settle onto its design frequency - which it will have to do at the beginning of each dit and dah since the oscillator will only be running when you depress the key. At receiving stations, this frequency change mixed with their BFO will sound like a chirp, hence the name. Chirp will be much worse with a keyed VFO.

4. The circuit will destroy most modern crystals, as discussed.

5. A valve oscillator driven hard like this one will produce abundant strong harmonics, which will not be attenuated very much by the output tuning arrangements in this circuit. It will probably interfere with your neighbours' televisions - TVI. Valve oscillators will get up to all kinds of tricks unless you take a very firm hand with them from the outset, from the design stage, where you must specify all the things they must not be allowed to get up to and take account of them.

6. The output matching/tuning set up is unsatisfactory. Besides doing very little to attenuate harmonics and other spurii, it won't make a good job of loading random wires, or anything else outside its obviously limited range.
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Sulaiman
Wed Apr 11 2012, 10:01PM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
I had a dipole for 20m band (2x 5m) using 0.8mm dia. 'magnet wire' which stayed up for several years, it finally broke so now I use 1.5mm dia 'magnet wire'
The dipole is over 8m high mounted on fiberglass fishing poles which sway easily >30 degrees each way in high wind ... no problem.
So I'd recommend 'magnet wire' for it's cheapness.
I've had trans-atlantic contacts with 50W ssb so it must be ok.
IF you have the space 1/2 wavelength dipoles are the best as no earth is required.

P.S. too thin wire breaks easily and birds may crash into it being unable to see it,
too thick makes an attractive birds resting place,

P.P.S. IF you have conductive soil and make a reasonably good earth then a vertical is good for 80m .. preferably 20m vertical, or less with a matching circuit (AMU/ATU)
If you use a 'long wire' antenna you will also need a good earth for 1/4-wavelength wire, or a good balun for an end-fed 1/2 wavelength, try to get the antenna 1/4 wavelength (or more) above earth or most of the power goes up, not horizontally.
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alf
Thu Apr 12 2012, 10:45AM
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
Proud Mary wrote ...

A long wire antenna made of 'magnet wire' - i.e. enamelled copper wire, will work well, if it is thick enough and strong enough and resilient enough, though I wouldn't recommend it. But if it's all you can get just now, it will work for you in the short term.

As for your superregen, just connect the antenna directly to it for the moment. You'll get better results if you have an Antenna Tuning Unit (ATU), between the receiver and the antenna, but this is by no means necessary to start off with.

The EL84 power-oscillator transmitter design is truly awful, Alf, for the following reasons:

1.) In the key-up position, you will have HT on the key itself. This kind of dangerous cathode keying is not acceptable.

2.) Oscillator cathode keying will cause chirp. Chirp is a condition where the oscillator takes a small time to find its feet and settle onto its design frequency - which it will have to do at the beginning of each dit and dah since the oscillator will only be running when you depress the key. At receiving stations, this frequency change mixed with their BFO will sound like a chirp, hence the name. Chirp will be much worse with a keyed VFO.

4. The circuit will destroy most modern crystals, as discussed.

5. A valve oscillator driven hard like this one will produce abundant strong harmonics, which will not be attenuated very much by the output tuning arrangements in this circuit. It will probably interfere with your neighbours' televisions - TVI. Valve oscillators will get up to all kinds of tricks unless you take a very firm hand with them from the outset, from the design stage, where you must specify all the things they must not be allowed to get up to and take account of them.

6. The output matching/tuning set up is unsatisfactory. Besides doing very little to attenuate harmonics and other spurii, it won't make a good job of loading random wires, or anything else outside its obviously limited range.


okay... as long as birds dont get tangled in it xD
yeah i have an atu actually so will try it .

oh thats annoying, since i just bought that tube for it lol

im used to receiving painful electric shocks, but the rest of the things you mentioned are a bit of a problem haha
regarding problem number 6, an atu would allow it to work with random wire antennas though right?

so do you think it could be easily modified to work better, without using a different valve haha

thanks , Alf.
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alf
Thu Apr 12 2012, 10:46AM
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
Sulaiman wrote ...

I had a dipole for 20m band (2x 5m) using 0.8mm dia. 'magnet wire' which stayed up for several years, it finally broke so now I use 1.5mm dia 'magnet wire'
The dipole is over 8m high mounted on fiberglass fishing poles which sway easily >30 degrees each way in high wind ... no problem.
So I'd recommend 'magnet wire' for it's cheapness.
I've had trans-atlantic contacts with 50W ssb so it must be ok.
IF you have the space 1/2 wavelength dipoles are the best as no earth is required.

P.S. too thin wire breaks easily and birds may crash into it being unable to see it,
too thick makes an attractive birds resting place,

P.P.S. IF you have conductive soil and make a reasonably good earth then a vertical is good for 80m .. preferably 20m vertical, or less with a matching circuit (AMU/ATU)
If you use a 'long wire' antenna you will also need a good earth for 1/4-wavelength wire, or a good balun for an end-fed 1/2 wavelength, try to get the antenna 1/4 wavelength (or more) above earth or most of the power goes up, not horizontally.



20 m vertical... O.o

where d'you get a 20m long pole? xD

right..
but to have birds sitting on it is safe at 10w right? lol

thanks, Alf.
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Sulaiman
Thu Apr 12 2012, 12:24PM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
That's why I said 'preferably 20m vertical, or less with a matching circuit (AMU/ATU)'
16m and 18m fishing poles are available via eBay
mount an 18m pole on a fence post and voila!

More economical 11m and 13m poles are a good choice with an AMU.
and easily made portable.

Since the requirement is an efficient antenna.. (far-field V/m per watt)
1/4-wave vertical or 1/2-wave dipole would be hard to beat.
Don't forget, the launch angle has a really significant effect on long range hf comms (skip etc.)
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alf
Thu Apr 12 2012, 07:41PM
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
Sulaiman wrote ...

That's why I said 'preferably 20m vertical, or less with a matching circuit (AMU/ATU)'
16m and 18m fishing poles are available via eBay
mount an 18m pole on a fence post and voila!

More economical 11m and 13m poles are a good choice with an AMU.
and easily made portable.

Since the requirement is an efficient antenna.. (far-field V/m per watt)
1/4-wave vertical or 1/2-wave dipole would be hard to beat.
Don't forget, the launch angle has a really significant effect on long range hf comms (skip etc.)


ahh i get it now xD

i live on the ground floor of a building about 25m high...
if i were to put a 20m long wire from near the roof to the ground, as a 1/4 wave vertical
antenna and use the ground (with an earth rod) as a ground plane would this work? :)
i know the building will kinda block the radio waves at one side though...
this would be an easy solution if it'd work anyway :)

thanks , Alf.
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radiotech
Fri Apr 13 2012, 06:26AM
radiotech Registered Member #2463 Joined: Wed Nov 11 2009, 03:49AM
Location:
Posts: 1546
If you can get something metal to rise about 10 meters from a terminal insulator
you can bring it into resonance at 80 meters by connecting a variable coil in series
(variometer) with the bottom.

What is the output configuration of the transmitter? Single terminal, coax connector?

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alf
Sat Apr 14 2012, 09:14AM
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
radiotech wrote ...

If you can get something metal to rise about 10 meters from a terminal insulator
you can bring it into resonance at 80 meters by connecting a variable coil in series
(variometer) with the bottom.

What is the output configuration of the transmitter? Single terminal, coax connector?




hmm ive not finished building it yet, but i guess im gonna use a pl-259 socket, so i can connect it to my atu
(kenwood at-230)

but if there is space to put a 20m antenna would this not be more effective than a 10m one?

thx, Alf.
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Sulaiman
Sat Apr 14 2012, 10:05AM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
As you have the possibility for a full 1/4-wave antenna go for it,
being near a building will
- de-tune the antenna .. probably less than 20m required for resonance
- potentially cause rfi to your neighbours
- be a little lossy.

If some horizontal space is available mount the bottom of the antenna as far from the building as practical, sloping up towards the top of the building with insulating line (I use fishing line) at the top
Use co-ax (whatever impedance you can get cheaply) to feed the antenna from your rig.
Some means of easily putting the antenna up and down is very helpful for adjusting the length to resonance and repairs.
An AMU/ATU would mean less critical adjustment of antenna length and a wider tuning range.
You will need a good rf earth, a single stake will work but cause losses
an underground metal pipeline (water, sewage etc.) would be much better.
It's quite difficult to make a good rf earth
.... ideally many radials but in practice compromises are required..

1/4 of the fun is the antenna system ... trial and error in my case.
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alf
Sun Apr 15 2012, 10:20AM
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
Sulaiman wrote ...

As you have the possibility for a full 1/4-wave antenna go for it,
being near a building will
- de-tune the antenna .. probably less than 20m required for resonance
- potentially cause rfi to your neighbours
- be a little lossy.

If some horizontal space is available mount the bottom of the antenna as far from the building as practical, sloping up towards the top of the building with insulating line (I use fishing line) at the top
Use co-ax (whatever impedance you can get cheaply) to feed the antenna from your rig.
Some means of easily putting the antenna up and down is very helpful for adjusting the length to resonance and repairs.
An AMU/ATU would mean less critical adjustment of antenna length and a wider tuning range.
You will need a good rf earth, a single stake will work but cause losses
an underground metal pipeline (water, sewage etc.) would be much better.
It's quite difficult to make a good rf earth
.... ideally many radials but in practice compromises are required..

1/4 of the fun is the antenna system ... trial and error in my case.


haha cool,

could i use the mains earth?
and could i connect the antenna directly to the atu without coax? :)

thanks for yer help, Alf.
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