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Legality of hobby radiography

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LAN_403

Bored Chemist

Wed Apr 13 2011, 08:47PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

HSE is the enforcing authority for the health and safety at work etc act.
If you are not at work, they don't care what you do.
I'm not sure how they view students. (probably with contempt- like the rest of us)

Ash Small

Wed Apr 13 2011, 09:02PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

I don't wish to 'imply' anything, PM.

Thanks for clearing up the point about HSE and CPS.

While I have no plans at present to construct a radiography device, I am currently involved in constructing a vacuum system which will incorporate electrostatics, etc. (and will produce some x-rays)

I obviously wish to avoid having my equipment confiscated, or worse, being prosecuted.

The reason I've taken so long to 'fire it up' is because I wish to take ALL the safety precautions I can.

(I'm sure you've read my posts regarding RF generators and magnetrons)

It's reassuring to know that unless I 'nuke' the neighbour's cat (or worse) I won't get prosecuted, as long as I take 'reasonable precautions'.

(incidentally, While 'the powers that be' over at fusor.net have effectively banned discussion of tritium as a fuel in fusors due to the fact that possesion of tritium is controlled in the US, there apparently appears to be nothing to stop those of us who live in the 'free world' from running a fusor on D-T and producing neutrons of 14 MeV)

Ash Small

Wed Apr 13 2011, 09:06PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Bored Chemist wrote ...

HSE is the enforcing authority for the health and safety at work etc act.
If you are not at work, they don't care what you do.
I'm not sure how they view students. (probably with contempt- like the rest of us)

Maybe it's time to 'wind up' the company I set up so I could buy chemicals more easily? (and avoid paying tax on the money I spend on my hobby, but don't tell the taxman

)

Proud Mary

Wed Apr 13 2011, 10:32PM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Ash Small wrote ...

While 'the powers that be' over at fusor.net have effectively banned discussion of tritium as a fuel in fusors due to the fact that possesion of tritium is controlled in the US, there apparently appears to be nothing to stop those of us who live in the 'free world' from running a fusor on D-T and producing neutrons of 14 MeV)

I can't comment on a forum of which I am not a member. I think it possible, however, that what you are describing might constitute a 'radioactive apparatus' within the meaning of the Radioactive Substances Act 1993. Moreover, this use of tritium would not seem to be covered by the Radioactive Substances (Gaseous Tritium Light Devices) Exemption Order 1985, but you should seek clarification from the Radiation Protection Division of the Health Protection Agency - the old NRPB.

Familiarity with The Justification of Practices Involving Ionising Radiation Regulations 2004 (SI 2004 No 1769) Guidance on their application and administration - Version May 2008 would stand you in better stead on current EU law than internet tittle tattle and unsourced opinion.

Steve Conner

Thu Apr 14 2011, 10:32AM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

plazmatron wrote ...

Sound like the voice of experience? It is.

Does this have anything to do with the disappearance of the hobby X-ray info from your site? :-/

plazmatron

Thu Apr 14 2011, 12:27PM

Registered Member #1134 Joined: Tue Nov 20 2007, 04:39PM
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 351

They will make an exception where ionising radiation is concerned.

Steve McConner wrote ...

plazmatron wrote ...

Sound like the voice of experience? It is.

Does this have anything to do with the disappearance of the hobby X-ray info from your site? :-/

Well spotted, indeed it does. It was suggested, that having "how-to's" on there was not in my best interests.
So in the interests of staying on the right footing I removed them. Likewise, the "about me" page was re written, since "they" didn't want the inexperienced copying it.

Some bits will make it back. Obviously details of detectors is perfectly OK, as are Scientific/Technical papers etc. But anything that implies unsafe practices should be avoided.

Ultimately, its not really a bad thing, a little professionalism is needed in this particular area, and my site will benefit from being a little less amateurish.

Les

Steve Conner

Thu Apr 14 2011, 02:28PM

Registered Member #30 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 10:52AM
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6706

OK, so if you don't mind sharing, who were "they", the HSE? And how did they get onto you?

I think technically speaking, your use of X-rays would be classed as work, since you sell prints (very nice ones at that

)

plazmatron

Thu Apr 14 2011, 05:33PM

Registered Member #1134 Joined: Tue Nov 20 2007, 04:39PM
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 351

Steve McConner wrote ...

OK, so if you don't mind sharing, who were "they", the HSE? And how did they get onto you?

I think technically speaking, your use of X-rays would be classed as work, since you sell prints (very nice ones at that

)

They were indeed the HSE. Seemingly someone reported my activities to the local council, who informed them. Not that I have ever been secretive about what I do. In fact a couple of years back, my "happy" neighbour threatened to go to the Police about my activities (that she claimed were illegal), so on the advice of Proud Mary, I took a list of equipment and chemicals along to the Police, The local Pharmacist and my GP.

It would seem that openness is the way to go with these things.

Thanks for your compliment! I do sell prints, but not really often. The HSE accepted that what I do is a hobby, but stated they made an exception as it involves the use of ionising radiation.

The HSE's position on the whole thing is that they do not encourage people to build or use x-ray machines at home. Nor is that fact that mine passed their inspection, any kind of permission for anyone (including me) to do as they please.
They were quite clear that in this case there was no concern with my current activities. Which is to my mind a carefully worded way of saying "if you build another one in the future, it had better be as compliant too",but at the same time they are saying "we are not encouraging you to build one either".

As I alluded in my previous post, the whole thing is self contained, and is compliant above and beyond the recommendations set out in the IRR, and I can assure everyone here, that if it had not been, the HSE could and would, have had it removed, and probably at my cost.

It should be noted, that should you fall foul of any criminal injury proceedings (ie you irradiated a person or animal), the HSE will not defend you, even if they had inspected your setup. Like a vehicle MOT they are saying "on the day we inspected it...."

Their recommendations were to remove the references on my site to any x-ray activity that could be construed as careless or reckless (for example mentioning the fact I radiographed my fingers when I was a kid!).
For now, I have taken down the entire section. As I said, some bits will re-appear after they have been extensively rewritten, however there will be, no "instructions" or ""how to's" on this particular subject, which really, thinking about it, is very wise anyway.

So my stance on the matter has pretty much ended up like theirs. I can not condone anyone building one, nor will I give any instructions on how to do it. However, at the risk of being a nag, you can expect me to point out safety issues, and mistakes, as far as this forum goes.

It is one of those hobbies, that must be done by the book if we expect to continue doing it, but even that is no guarantee. The mere mention of the word "Radiation" is enough to instill fear in most people, and the subject will always be a political hot potato.

Les

Proud Mary

Thu Apr 14 2011, 05:56PM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

I think the HSE ambiguity and ambivalence Les has described has come about because the possibility of amateur or extra-institutional x-ray use simply didn't occur to radiation policy makers when legislation was drafted.

Good can come of this if it raises standards, and encourages more people to look at the world below 5 keV, where all sorts of challenges and opportunities are sure to await us.

James

Thu Apr 14 2011, 07:22PM

Registered Member #3610 Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506

That's all good info. Anyone have any knowledge of the USA regulations on the subject?

What worries me most is the way people freak out irrationally at the mere mention of "radiation". On the other hand, dental and veterinary x-ray equipment is used all the time in densely populated areas with minimal shielding beyond the machine itself.

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