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would alcohol from poisonous berries count legally as denatured alcohol?

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LAN_403

samiHere

Sat Aug 21 2010, 12:52AM

Registered Member #3110 Joined: Fri Aug 13 2010, 12:31AM
Location:
Posts: 5

If I wanted to make my own fuel alcohol and used poison berries in the mash, could I use that as evidence that I didnt intend to drink the resulting alcohol? Would me doing a lab to see if the alcohol did or did not still contain toxins be viewed by government entities as "moonshine production"

Bjørn

Sat Aug 21 2010, 02:06AM

Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058

You don't mention where you live but I can make a guess. It does not matter if it is drinkable or not, it is still forbidden to make without all the required licenses and following all the regulations. The only difference is that if it is drinkable you have to pay tax in addition.

This is the first hurdle:

Application for permit required.
Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel plant shall first make application for and obtain an alcohol fuel producer's permit. The application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. The application, in duplicate, will be submitted to the regional director (compliance). The description of stills on the approved application constitutes registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. Alcohol fuel producers' permits are continuing unless automatically terminated under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided in Sec. 19.950, or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September 17, 1999

should know the rest.

Adam Munich

Sat Aug 21 2010, 03:02AM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

Honestly, So long as you do not sell it as a drink, nobody is going to go after you if it's made small quantities for fuel use. I know multiple people (online) that do such a thing, and they've never had any problems with the law. Making ethanol is a very common practice.

Bored Chemist

Sat Aug 21 2010, 11:05AM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

When you distil it to get a high enough concentration to burn you will leave pretty much any poison behind.
The authorities won't like anything that stops them getting money as tax.

Adam Munich

Sat Aug 21 2010, 05:06PM

Registered Member #2893 Joined: Tue Jun 01 2010, 09:25PM
Location: Cali-forn. i. a.
Posts: 2242

Why not make methanol? It can be burned as well, and I don't think there is any law against it. All you need is wood, a metal heating container, and a few copper pipes to make a still.

Hon1nbo

Sat Aug 21 2010, 09:53PM

Registered Member #902 Joined: Sun Jul 15 2007, 08:17PM
Location: North Texas
Posts: 1040

any alcohol production is regulated, drinkable or not.
I lookied into this a while back for making an Ethanol engine as a science project. They have a specific class for production of FUEL grade alcohol. It is easier to obtain in some places and they don't tax it IIRC (at least in Texas) but you do still have to get a permit which in itself would cost some money, and they have to right to inspect equipment and processed material

-Jimmy

samiHere

Sat Aug 21 2010, 11:44PM

Registered Member #3110 Joined: Fri Aug 13 2010, 12:31AM
Location:
Posts: 5

thanks, im gonna go with grenadier's idea and make methanol

Bored Chemist

Sun Aug 22 2010, 03:07PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

Here in the UK, just owning a still without a license is a problem. Since you will need one you should check up on this for where you are.
Also you will need quite a good still if you plan to use the methanol as fuel in a petrol type engine. The heating of wood produces lots of other stuff, Acetone is one by-product and If I remember rightly it knocks like crazy in spark-ignition engines.
A diesel engine might be more tolerant but I don't really know how well you could use wood this way.

Conundrum

Mon Aug 23 2010, 10:33PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059

yeah, we can blame high fuel taxes for this one..
is it just me or do the Govt intentionally make things difficult for people trying out unconventional fuels?

one alternative is to obtain a cheap diesel generator and use SVO to run it, if preheated with waste engine heat it ought to work fine.
also a vehicle which does not "directly drive the wheels" from an internal combustion generator (i.e. charges the batteries, which then run the electric motors) it is legally classed as an electric vehicle as long as the generator is off when the car is in motion.

-A

Proud Mary

Mon Aug 23 2010, 10:46PM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

As one often finds on an international forum such as this, regulations differ from one national jurisdiction to another, and what may be legal to do in one country, may be illegal in another.

In the United Kingdom, denatured alcohol is tightly defined by the Dentaured Alcohol Regulations 2005 as follows:

"Completely denatured alcohol must be made in accordance with the following formulation: with every 90 parts by volume of alcohol mix 9.5 parts by volume of wood naphtha or a substitute for wood naphtha and 0.5 parts by volume of crude pyridine, and to the resulting mixture add mineral naphtha (petroleum oil) in the proportion of 3.75 litres to every 1000 litres of the mixture and synthetic organic dyestuff (methyl violet) in the proportion of 1.5 grams to every 1000 litres of the mixture."

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