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Registered Member #3059
Joined: Tue Aug 03 2010, 04:09AM
Location: My turf
Posts: 18
Well, Proud Mary, it's what you think, but I stand by my experience. I would like for you to use the X-ray spectrometer to prove it. I am not being jerk, but from where I am standing, X-ray gets harder once voltage climbs over. You really have to get and read Dentist or CT X-ray equipment owner's manual to really find out. Presently, I have NO way to know unless I get some nifty X-ray spectrography hardwares (which I would really need as I am building a X-ray laser using alpha pinch in Helium with 60kV or higher rushing through callipary - I am imagining I would only be getting Neon-IV lines, which is in soft X-ray lines, or Nitrogen-III in EUV bands - if I am really lucky, I may get middle-wave X-ray, Oxygen III Ion line of 933 Picometers, but never harder... I am gonna need spectrometer on this one...) - in other word, I will really forget about using Magnetron for X-ray, they STILL are capable of Hard X-ray (which you will only get away if you provide LOT of cooling....)
Which, in many case, I would perfer to use X-ray laser, as it's a bit safer in much respects, you would know where the light go, and it doesn't spread out as much as a X-ray Coolidge tube....
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Dr. Mario wrote ...
Well, Proud Mary, it's what you think, but I stand by my experience. I would like for you to use the X-ray spectrometer to prove it. I am not being jerk, but from where I am standing, X-ray gets harder once voltage climbs over. You really have to get and read Dentist or CT X-ray equipment owner's manual to really find out. Presently, I have NO way to know unless I get some nifty X-ray spectrography hardwares (which I would really need as I am building a X-ray laser using alpha pinch in Helium with 60kV or higher rushing through callipary - I am imagining I would only be getting Neon-IV lines, which is in soft X-ray lines, or Nitrogen-III in EUV bands - if I am really lucky, I may get middle-wave X-ray, Oxygen III Ion line of 933 Picometers, but never harder... I am gonna need spectrometer on this one...) - in other word, I will really forget about using Magnetron for X-ray, they STILL are capable of Hard X-ray (which you will only get away if you provide LOT of cooling....)
Which, in many case, I would perfer to use X-ray laser, as it's a bit safer in much respects, you would know where the light go, and it doesn't spread out as much as a X-ray Coolidge tube....
You seem not to understand the fundamental relationship between X-ray photon energy, X-ray wavelength, and X-ray source anode voltage.
You should try to learn how to stop embarrassing yourself and others with confused confabulations of this kind, if only because it is preventing you from actually learning anything about a subject in which you are clearly interested. And with that I shall wish you goodbye, and good luck.
Registered Member #3059
Joined: Tue Aug 03 2010, 04:09AM
Location: My turf
Posts: 18
Me confusing the others? I knew better than that. I wouldn't dare to microwave myself, and it's the thermal gradient that would cook my eyes, and X-ray is 100 - 1,000 times worse than that. It rips electrons out of molecules, it's what it do, since it got massive energy in the photon packets (X-ray wavelength is ultra-short compared to Microwave wavelength).
If you want to kick me out, go ahead. Think about it before you do. Get a science book on optics and lasers and you will see why I would not dare to say, "Hey, it's cool to X-ray yourself, and you will glow in the dark", it's real wrong. I knew better than that.
Registered Member #1225
Joined: Sat Jan 12 2008, 01:24AM
Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA
Posts: 2253
Proud Mary wrote ...
Not definitely nonsense at all. It may possibly work if you remove the magnet, don't apply heater current, and apply a sufficiently high voltage.
Many types of thermionic valves [USA: "tubes"] can be driven to produce X-rays by cold cathode discharge by running them at a suitably high voltage without applying heater/filament current.
Popular valves used by amateur X-radiographers are PD500 [in Europe] and the 6BK4B [in the United States,] which are similar EHT shunt stabiliser triodes used in valve-era colour television sets.
Many television EHT rectifier diode valves can also be made to give enough X-radiation for amateur experiments.
A magnetron - which has already been designed to hold off quite large voltages - could very likely emit X-rays if you discard the magnet, do not apply heater current, and stick 40kV and more across it in a suitably safe way.
Make sure you have a reliable means of detecting and measuring any X-rays produced, and be very careful indeed with all that you do.
I have even seen people make X-rays by putting some alu foil on the top of a tube without an anode cap. They connected all of the pins together and hooked them to a Tesla coil, and i guess the aluminum foil was grounded. Apparently they got X-rays, otherwise they would not have put it on the internet :)
Registered Member #543
Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
Arcstarter wrote ...
I have even seen people make X-rays by putting some alu foil on the top of a tube without an anode cap. They connected all of the pins together and hooked them to a Tesla coil, and i guess the aluminum foil was grounded. Apparently they got X-rays, otherwise they would not have put it on the internet :)
An article called "An Inexpensive X-Ray Machine" in the now famous Scientific American Book of Projects For the Amateur Scientist, Simon & Schuster, 1960, describes just this, and was my first inspiration to have a go myself.
The author, Harry Simons, used field emission electrons to bomabrd the magnesium getter inside a long obsolete thermionic valve he specifies as 01. This 1930s valve seems to have been the RCA-01-A described as "a three electrode storage battery tube for use as a detector and as a amplifier."
When these 1930s valves became unavailable, Simons had cold cathode tubes like the one below made to order for $15 - none too cheap in 1960, when the average wage of an African-American female was $9 per week. The technique of using a thin film anode such that X-rays emerge from its back is still used today in 'transmission target' analytical X-ray tubes.
Simons used an AC circuit such that the 'anode' - the magnesium getter - is powered via the capacitance between the getter on the inside, and a foil wrapping on the outside, of the glass. As a grounded anode tube using AC, the device would only have emitted X-rays on the negative half cycle, a situation which must have caused both amplitude and frequency modulation of the pulsed beam.
The high voltage AC was produced by an Oudin coil of Simons' own design:
Lacking a distinct anode focal spot, Simons' radiographs lacked resolution.
Registered Member #3059
Joined: Tue Aug 03 2010, 04:09AM
Location: My turf
Posts: 18
Well, X-ray from funny-looking arrangement (a light bulb with Aluminum foil) won't give you hard X-ray, no matter how hard you crank up, or how hard you look at it. It's because there is Argon atmosphere inside bulb that will slow electrons down, very narrow mean-free-path for them (think of heavy metal ball you usually throw at track meeting, being dropped into swimming pool. Why wouldn''t it dent a floor? It's water that impose lot of friction resistance - same with electrons in Argon gas). Plus, Glass have very narrow energy density (lot of Boron and Silicon which can either kill off hard X-ray or absorb it until it overheats and shatters - it also slow electrons down - considerably more than in Argon gas.) - I did just that with small bulb, no useful X-ray, they were absorbed even by thin glass envlope, evidenced by aqua-green lights (if you crank it up, it will just arc over the bulb happily no matter how well you try...). I was bored and tried this method.
For that reason, they switched to hard vacuum tube for even more useful X-ray lights for medical and welding work (BTW, industrial battery-powered X-ray machine at welding work area loves to eat its own batteries even after few minutes - it got monstrous inverter inside it - everything overkill in term of size and current rating. In the end, they want brightest X-ray as possible so they CAN find faults in thick metals being inspected for crappy welding jobs. Sometimes, for solid metal post, they just resort to gamma-ray radiography, if X-raying that weld job was futile.)
BTW, it's still always possible to extract useful X-ray in just right condition. Experiment until you can find the best exposure with that light bulb tricks. (ALWAYS HAVE A GEIGER COUNTER OR ANY OTHER X-RAY SENSORS ON YOU, IT'S BETTER TO BE SAFE!)
However, I have been wondering, do the gas pressure have any effect on X-ray generation, as per the individual bulbs??? I would love to know why... BTW, clear (fridge) bulbs work better than frosted ones, due to Telflon powder which is an insulator.
Registered Member #27
Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
Different light bulbs contain different things, ranging from vacuum to high pressure gas mixes. So you can't make any general statements regarding how well they can generate x-rays. The picture does not show a light bulb at all so it is hard to see where that comes in to play.
Just leave it with the fact that for every thing you think you know about something, Proud Mary knows 100 times more and has the references to back it up.
The author, Harry Simons, used field emission electrons to bomabrd the magnesium getter inside a long obsolete thermionic valve he specifies as 01. This 1930s valve seems to have been the RCA-01-A described as "a three electrode storage battery tube for use as a detector and as a amplifier."
When these 1930s valves became unavailable, Simons had cold cathode tubes like the one below made to order for $15 - none too cheap in 1960, when the average wage of an African-American female was $9 per week. The technique of using a thin film anode such that X-rays emerge from its back is still used today in 'transmission target' analytical X-ray tubes.
Simons used an AC circuit such that the 'anode' - the magnesium getter - is powered via the capacitance between the getter on the inside, and a foil wrapping on the outside, of the glass. As a grounded anode tube using AC, the device would only have emitted X-rays on the negative half cycle, a situation which must have caused both amplitude and frequency modulation of the pulsed beam.
The high voltage AC was produced by an Oudin coil of Simons' own design:
Lacking a distinct anode focal spot, Simons' radiographs lacked resolution.
Mary, the '01a is still here, you can buy it for $20. It's used in antique radios from the 20s and 30s. it's real name is the 201a
Bjørn wrote ...
Different light bulbs contain different things, ranging from vacuum to high pressure gas mixes. So you can't make any general statements regarding how well they can generate x-rays. The picture does not show a light bulb at all so it is hard to see where that comes in to play.
Just leave it with the fact that for every thing you think you know about something, Proud Mary knows 100 times more and has the references to back it up.
Bjorn, don't you think that's a little too harsh? at least he's trying!
Registered Member #3059
Joined: Tue Aug 03 2010, 04:09AM
Location: My turf
Posts: 18
Yea. However, I am no longer going to post, left off only to view the website maybe download something. And, there are something that Proud Mary may know what I don't, though.
BTW, I got magnetron tube - need to crack one more magnet (just worried about BeO inside the heater cover... Reddish pink ceramic at antenna end may be of Aluminum-based ceramic or maybe something different, so I am going to think of best way to crack the last magnet without cracking that nasty stuff - biohazard stuff is one thing I would think twice...)
And, I may have to start calculating the lowest point then drive it up slowly - trying one thing at the time. (I may try drive it as low as 24kV to 33kV at 500uA or so, depending on how hot the heater is - since magnetron is pumped down real good at the factory - if you have accidentally dropped the magnetron, you may know what I mean... =P )
I am not going for powerful X-ray for now (as a precaution), I may intend to use X-ray from a modified magnetron tube for sensor testing (scintillator or direct-detection) for now. I am planning to construct X-ray laser later on - based kinda on US Patent: 5467362 - Pulsed gas-discharge X-ray laser. (This one is gonna push the limit of how I know everything works: the capacitor high-voltage rail is something like TEA Nitrogen laser's. Very hard since ESR must be very low - I may try SMD capacitors soldered on Copper rail and build them up in bothy Parallel and Serial wiring - and I may need to find the best Thyratron - it's going to cost me pretty pennies....)
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X-Ray VS Magnetron?
