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Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: Chemistry
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The molecular force of water expansion

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Bored Chemist
Thu Jun 21 2007, 10:42AM
Bored Chemist Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022
The idea of ice melting under skaters is a myth.
The effect of pressure on freezing point is only about a hundredth of a degree per atmosphere. With something like a couple of hundred pounds of skater on a blade a tenth of an inch thick and a foot long the melting point would only rise by about a quarter of a degree. So unless the ice was between 0 and -0.25 C to begin with it wouldn't melt. It's perfectly possible to skate at 20 below. At that temperature the ice would only melt if the pressure were something like 2000 atmospheres or 30000PSI. I dont think that skates would get anything like that pressure.
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atomicthumbs
Mon Nov 05 2007, 09:17PM
atomicthumbs Registered Member #498 Joined: Sun Nov 19 2006, 06:00PM
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 19
Well, way back when (around the 30s or 40s), some scientist filled a 4-inch-thick bombshell with water, screwed on the cap, and left it outside in the snow for a night.

He came back in the morning and the thing had a nice neat crack all the way around.
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Bored Chemist
Tue Nov 06 2007, 06:49AM
Bored Chemist Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022
Bomb shells are designed to break.
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Dr. Dark Current
Tue Nov 06 2007, 02:01PM
Dr. Dark Current Registered Member #152 Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384
Bored Chemist wrote ...

.. on a blade a tenth of an inch thick ...
Do you really think the blade is so thick? I'd say you're off by a factor of 10 at least.
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Bjørn
Tue Nov 06 2007, 06:25PM
Bjørn Registered Member #27 Joined: Fri Feb 03 2006, 02:20AM
Location: Hyperborea
Posts: 2058
Some sports have a minimum width of 2.9 mm in the safety regulations and they work fine. A chair sledge has a much wider blade and it works fine too, both on ice and snow.

The rubbing action is probably much more important than the pressure itself.
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Electroholic
Tue Nov 06 2007, 07:33PM
Electroholic Registered Member #191 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 02:01AM
Location: Esbjerg Denmark
Posts: 720
and the ice isn't not perfectly flat.
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Smlizz
Tue Nov 06 2007, 08:08PM
Smlizz Registered Member #129 Joined: Fri Feb 10 2006, 07:55PM
Location: Austin Texas
Posts: 9
Here is a video of water in a cast iron shell in a dry ice bath. link
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Shaun
Tue Nov 13 2007, 02:32AM
Shaun Registered Member #690 Joined: Tue May 08 2007, 03:47AM
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 616
That video is crazy..really puts things in perspective

Now we need a galv iron pipe and a vat of LN2!
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Pete
Wed Nov 14 2007, 12:33AM
Pete Registered Member #106 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 09:39PM
Location: Portland, OR and Istanbul, Turkey
Posts: 47
goood lord... That's is a sufficient video. I will ALWAYS put proper amounts of antifreeze in my radiator.
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rp181
Wed Nov 28 2007, 03:33AM
rp181 Registered Member #1062 Joined: Tue Oct 16 2007, 02:01AM
Location:
Posts: 1529
just speculating, i wonder if that force could be used to get energy from piezo electric materials? i dont know how much those give though
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