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im facing some ethical issues and im needing some support.

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Patrick

Fri Dec 21 2018, 09:47AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

Im writing this while emotional so please forgive me if i sound sort of rambly.
i cant say where i work, discuss specific actions, or reveal what type of work we do. So please dont try to find out or ask. youll just make things harder on me. so please dont.

ive studied episodes of legitimate accidents and profound negligence in our fields of science
and engineering, and vowed as with the Hippocratic oath and my own pride that i wouldnt take part
in clearly unacceptable actions. as with the Windscale, SL-1, Chernobyl, Titanic, challenger explosion, the bhopal MIC disaster and many similar cases.

ive been assured that nothing we've done is a threat to life or limb. and i have independent information that confirms this (and i hold another position that would also know). And i have seen the safety measures that are used for just this type of failure should it happen through and act of god. But its still a HUGE deal.

Im not worried about losing my job, im at peace with that if it happens. And the other engineers see thats how i feel, and see that im still more worried about the "machine".

So for the background, i let myself be pressured into making changes to a outrageously unfit part, and im sure all of the ones i fixed are now fully fit to use. but our ME's and QA's were deliberately left out on this major repair. Also, these defective parts were approved by QA and went through routing to me, so i was the one given these parts and i recognized they were bad, by some great miracle and brought up the issue. but my highest ranking boss "forced" me keep quite and to make the changes and i did. of course its still my fault, "murder ? i was just following orders ..." is what they all say. the problem is its a single point failure device and wont reveal itself through our open/close loop test. as i said i found the bad parts -- alot of them, but no QA person nor myself would ever believe i visually caught them all, its just not credible. So some "Machines" are definitely shipped out and are long gone. because we broke procedure the "machine number" and defective part lots cant be recalled.

it got to the point where we were making too many of these exceptions and i spoke up. so everyone is looking through every little tiny thing, i mean i really set off the fire works. i was threatened but the chief engineer told me to go to HR, its a good thing too. my boss called by phone just a bit earlier to report me as insubordinate. the problem for him is ive been meeting secretly with the program manager, chief engineer and the program QA engineer for 3 days prior. it was only today that things really lit up though. I dont like going over peoples heads its dangerous but it had to happen at some point.

im tired its been a scary day, im sure im forgetting things so ill add more. Im sure i will love work tomorrow, the usual stuff, missing tools, missing papers, the backwards comment in the hall were already starting. I was assured we are an ethical company by others before i was hired but now we'll really see if thats true or propaganda.

the funny thing is i HATED building each and every one of these "machines". but now in a weird way i feel like im the one protecting them, after i let them down.

ive been in manufacturing for more than 10 years so im not new to the whole bending the rules in assembly/fabrication vs. way out of line stuff.

i guess id like to ask 2 questions.

-- have any of you had a similar experience and did you speak up or stand silent?

-- later in life how did you feel ?

i know ive done the right thing, a little late, a little guilty, but i dont regret this at all. maybe im just asking you guys for moral support. i dont know.

Sulaiman

Fri Dec 21 2018, 11:55AM

Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140

moral support :
it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God

... or something like that.

There are potentially a lot of bonuses and pension pots at risk,
so good luck with the corporate ethics route.
(is there an Ecuadorian embassy nearby - just in case ?)

I've resigned twice on principle,
but you can't formally give that as a reason or you will not easily be employed in future.

OR

immoral support :
you can go for your career in your present role - and maybe get rich.

the_anomaly

Fri Dec 21 2018, 12:23PM

Registered Member #19 Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 03:19PM
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 168

I've been in a similar situation, crummy corporate attitude and I'm the only one speaking up. I'll be the loudest person in the room if I advocate for the customer. I've stopped product shipping because test machines are down and in that corporate environment there is no greater sin. I've been through interviews with hopeful employees and listened to management lie about the fantastic culture and benefits so I give little credence if an inside person tries to sell to me.

After several years, I resigned and I've found the grass is greener else ware. Current company I now work for has much stronger financials and ironically, nobody bends the rules.

You did the right thing. We all make some mistakes, so long as you learn from it and improve yourself and your character, I'm certain that's the answer to a meaningful regret free life.

By the sound of it, I would line something else up.

Now when I interview I make sure to ask questions like 'have you ever thought of leaving the company?' or 'whats the biggest improvement you would like to see'. Yeah they could answer with a lie but I feel like I get a good feel for the corporate culture.

DerAlbi

Fri Dec 21 2018, 01:24PM

Registered Member #2906 Joined: Sun Jun 06 2010, 02:20AM
Location: Dresden, Germany
Posts: 727

There is also the 3rd option - without knowing what you do and without knowing your education there can be no good answer.
See, people who do their job a long time and "learned by doing" can often find themselves in a similar position. Time changes, products evolve, technology becomes better quickly beyond the point a hands-on mind can handle. A more formal educated person does the math, and what seems shitty on the surface is actually great in theory and therefore in reality too - but unrecognizable.
This is true in electronics, where bad engineers often overdesign (out of fear due to lack of knowledge) in order to avoid failure - if a good engineer comes along and makes the design cheaper through good engineering work, that will scare the old gray beard who had his way for the past 20 years. Same is true for mechanics.. weight and cost reduction though CAD / FEM / generative design can bring so weird answers, our minds dont accept them easily.
Then there is often the component of esthetics. Physics does usually not care about the human graving for golden ratio, 90Â° or 45Â° degree angles and a lot other nonsense people like to do in order to design "pretty" things. "Functional" should be the only word that counts. The majority of people do not get this - and waste time and money and refuse ugly but perfectly valid solutions to a problem.

No doubt there are bad management decisions and - i am sure - a lot of them. But in a team effort design, people need to be trusted that they do their job. It is not possible that everybody supervises everybody in an environment of mistrust. Maybe QA made no mistake, maybe they did math you are not aware of or maybe there is a miscommunication about the specs towards you.
My point is, one can get very upset quickly if you think that you found a fundamental mistake that may not even be there.
The Dunning-Kruger-Effect

describes such behavior very spot on. The more you think you know, the louder and annoying you become for your surrounding. And one, by definition, never knows what you dont know.
It is also about embarrassment - errors have to be communicated correctly. Accusations, specially across a hierarchy can be shut down very quickly. The question why something is that way, might be answered with some initial motivation.

Maybe not the most soothing post, but there were points to be made.

2Spoons

Fri Dec 21 2018, 11:29PM

Registered Member #2939 Joined: Fri Jun 25 2010, 04:25AM
Location:
Posts: 615

I've been in engineering for nearly 30 years (damn , where did the time go?) and I too have encountered the engineering vs management problem. Me, if I find an issue, will speak up loud and make sure everyone knows my position. If management want to ignore or override me, then then as far as I'm concerned its not my problem any more, and they can wear the consequences of their decision. I just make sure its all on record. I've never had to worry about potential injury though - in that situation I'd do whatever it took to prevent the fault leaving the premises, including going outside of the company. I don't want an injury or death as a result of something I did or didn't do. If it means losing my job then fine, there's plenty of work for people with my level of experience and I'd rather not associate with a company of dubious ethics.

MRMILSTAR

Sat Dec 22 2018, 04:40AM

Registered Member #62119 Joined: Sun Feb 04 2018, 04:59AM
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 136

Document everything that you said and did along with a timeline.

Chris Cristini

Sat Dec 22 2018, 04:49PM

Registered Member #1749 Joined: Fri Oct 10 2008, 02:04AM
Location: Claremont New Hampshire
Posts: 497

For me its Engineer vs Machinist lol I am glad I do both but still there is always a place for headbutting HR always comes to me and says do you have any issues today lol he is joking of course but there will always be room for you at another job If you get fired for standing up for what you believe in that should be a blessing.
When I was Automation Maintenance I got a lot of bad marks in my file Because I stood up for myself and others for example when I had to work on Injection Mold Machines going in to the Electronics cabinet with voltages reaching 460V on the larger ones and they did not supply PPE for arc flash I said to people how Unsafe that could be I always got called a pu$$y lol That was a reason I was laid off.

Patrick

Tue Dec 25 2018, 12:44AM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

DerAlbi wrote ...

Maybe QA made no mistake, maybe they did math you are not aware of or maybe there is a miscommunication about the specs towards you.

And one, by definition, never knows what you dont know.
It is also about embarrassment - errors have to be communicated correctly. Accusations, specially across a hierarchy can be shut down very quickly.

yes, these things are why i kept my mouth shut for 2 months, but it turns out the QA's and ME's didnt know and were shocked.

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Tue Dec 25 2018, 04:26AM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

Well, Patrick, I think you should be able to guess where I work from my avatar.

1. It's QA's ass that is on the line, they represent the customer
2. You brought up the issue, you did your due diligence, this you have to do or it becomes negligence.
3. Meeting with HR is one option
4. You do have something called the "open line" where you can report issues without retaliation. Our companies make it so retaliation is not allowed, but don't be surprised if you get passed over for promotions and work, as you are not a "team player"
5. Ultimately the "chain" of decisions is exposed, and remembering that you are a small part in unethical chain of decisions weighs in your favor.

We had a unit that was failing, and one of the microwave cables that I built was being blamed for the performance issue. Ultimately I had the S-par data when I installed the cable and delivered the final assembly, so I was able to prove that the data before and after had no impact. The boss still demanded replacements be issued, so I built those, and still the performance issue remained, because we could all see the return loss had no impact on the overall failing performance. In the end, it was a controller that was failing to command a channel not the cable, and the whole system design impact analysis was delayed by at least 6 months while they fiddle farted around with cable measurements instead of trouble shooting properly. The big boss didn't want to admit that his $$$$$ baby didn't work and it was easier to blame the support team, over a $$$$$ system. In the end, they are still looking at the board failure, and they have wasted millions of dollars in meetings because the fool doesn't understand troubleshooting.
I haven't felt an impact so far, and my direct boss supported my findings because after all... I am the cable guy and its fairly obvious to anyone who builds cables what we're looking for in performance.

Ethics is a pretty flag the company hides behind, its all bullshit when it comes time for a delivery.
It's rare that you will find a boss that will say "stop everything, lets get all the resources together to fix this and do it right!"

You do have a right to stop work, but you had better be dead right, that's the problem with aerospace.

But remember, there is always a chain of bad decisions that cause these issues, it's not one individuals fault. And when you get everyone to buy-into a change, they are responsible for that change too, even if it didn't go through a ME or QA, it went through your boss, which he's exposing himself in making the mistake because he is not going through the correct channels to make changes, and he is in violation of the process. And audit findings can cost the company business and future contracts based on those audit findings.

Patrick

Tue Dec 25 2018, 09:29PM

Registered Member #2431 Joined: Tue Oct 13 2009, 09:47PM
Location: Chico, CA. USA
Posts: 5639

yes Hazmatt your points are well stated and what i considered long and hard before coming forward.

the funny and predictable thing that happened the next day was that my $100 best counter sink was bent and unusable.

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