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Can you discharge a high voltage cap into a electron accelerator

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Andy

Sat Dec 21 2013, 07:30PM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
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Posts: 874

Hi, I was wondering can you discharge a high voltage cap into a electron accelerator. In theory what I was looking for was about 1M coulomb of charge.
Would the accelerator be a high resistance load?

Any possible way to make it work.

Thanks

Ash Small

Sun Dec 22 2013, 03:18AM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

The way it's normally done is the capacitor 'is' the accelerator. The plates are charged, and then the electrons are 'injected' into the accelerator, at least that's how it's usually done with proton accelerators.

It's the rate of electron/proton injection that determines the current of the beam.

EDIT: Unless your electron accelerator works like a vacuum tube, then you'd need to apply a pulse to the grid, I suppose, or maybe apply a pulse between anode and cathode.

Andy

Sun Dec 22 2013, 05:32AM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
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Posts: 874

With injected would a MOT supply work voltage wise. I don't need much acceleration maybe 500v-5kv, but ever power of ten ,amp wise would be a bonus

Thanks

Proud Mary

Sun Dec 22 2013, 12:07PM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

The simplest type of electron accelerator is a thermionic diode valve, where electrons boiled off a heated cathode accelerate towards a positively charged anode.

The X-ray tube is a special case of a diode valve, where high voltages are used to accelerate electrons to bombard an anode and so create X-rays.

One type of x-ray tube called a flash X-ray tube is sometimes powered by the discharge of a single capacitor through the tube.

Magnetic lenses - energised by capacitor discharge power converters that generate high current pulses - are used in some types of particle accelerator.

Ash Small

Sun Dec 22 2013, 01:22PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Andy wrote ...

With injected would a MOT supply work voltage wise. I don't need much acceleration maybe 500v-5kv, but ever power of ten ,amp wise would be a bonus

Thanks

What exactly is it that you are trying to do, Andy? I think we need some more information.

With the type of electro-static accelerator that I'm familiar with/building, the accelerator is first pumped down to 'vacuum', then the voltage is applied, basically at either end, although usually several stages are used for focussing, and once the potential has been established, the particles to be accelerated are injected. The 'rate of injection' controls 'beam current', the potential just has to be maintained in order to accomodate this current. High vacuums are generally required, in order to maintain the voltages required, etc. (that's about as simple as I can explain it).

There are other types, some of which use a mechanism similar to vacuum tubes for producing electrons, however, from what I can gather, these are generally used with small cyclotrons.

If you can supply more information I'm sure we can give a more 'specific' answer.

Bored Chemist

Sun Dec 22 2013, 04:51PM

Registered Member #193 Joined: Fri Feb 17 2006, 07:04AM
Location: sheffield
Posts: 1022

Andy wrote ...

I was looking for was about 1M coulomb of charge.

Good luck.
even at a relatively modest 1Kv that's a billion Joules
These people

talk about an energy storage density of 4J/cc
4KJ/litre
4MJ/m^3
so (If I have got the arithmetic right) you need a capacitor with a volume of about 250 cubic metres.

You could, in principle, charge it with a MOT.
If that is rated for 1KW then it would take something of the order of a million seconds to charge the cap.
Roughly two weeks.

Perhaps you need to think this through again.

Andy

Sun Dec 22 2013, 07:38PM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

Hi Ash

If you can supply more information I'm sure we can give a more 'specific' answer.

I'm trying to charge up a floating plate(target), but it needs to happen quickly, the faster the better. I will be using a diffusion pump to get the vacuum as low as possible. The plate will go to other parts of the circuit, wired in a type off AC network.

Hi Bored Chemist
I've increase another part of the circuit by two lots of 1000, so don't need 1M for this part.

Thanks

Ash Small

Sun Dec 22 2013, 10:26PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

Andy wrote ...

I'm trying to charge up a floating plate(target),

If you're saying what I think you are saying, as the plate starts to charge, it will start to repel electrons. As the plate becomes more charged, this repulsion will increase, and electrons will move from the target to the 'Anode', or, at least. I'm pretty sure that's what will happen.

Sigurthr

Sun Dec 22 2013, 11:06PM

Registered Member #4463 Joined: Wed Apr 18 2012, 08:08AM
Location: MI's Upper Peninsula
Posts: 597

Yep, like charges repel, so if you don't provide a path for current to flow from the anode back to the cathode through an external circuit, the "floating anode" will eventually reach equilibrium with the "cathode" (electron source) and the electrons will become repelled by the "formerly anode" plate. When you charge up that target plate no more current will flow into the vacuum chamber.

Andy, what is the purpose of this whole device?

Andy

Mon Dec 23 2013, 12:56AM

Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874

Hi Sigurthr
Its to test out the ether and the levels below matter. The floating plate will hopefully slow down electrical current pass it.

The ion source has to be positive, was thinking that a vacuum partly filled with hydrogen, and a negative voltage would accelerate the hydrogen into the plate.
Is there any way to stop the current flow, with a high level of volts on the plate?, would a meter space between target and anode stop say 100-500kv and pressure at ....?

This is part of the setup

The values are not 100% accurate with regards to 1amp, more like 1 nA, but the voltages are in the range, the cap is adjusted based on the timing. Still working on it, but if anyone can spot a problem, I'm all ears

Just some theory of operation, The information in the ether travels at 300,000m/sec(from a place on earth, faster thought out in space), if the data arrives at the same time as the information, electron drift speed, it will create a hole, which should accelerate the electron speed(in volts) from 299,792,458 faster, to get the electrons in the same place a ac source with different timings frequency shifts the electrons back and forward, while building the amount up to the voltage gradient, to do that you need to slow down the speed to almost stationary, it then stays in one direction a fraction longer and a electron with say 1MV instead of 1volt, potential difference arrives at the same place in space. The thing above should make the voltage gradient the same apart from the middle spark gap.For this thing to work as expected needs 1kg of electrons or parts there of, 10MV(7), cap discharge at that voltage 10MA(7+16), is 29 out of 31. The thing should speed up protons faster, they are at 27, but as electrons are the thing we measure with it will be hard to get a accurate pictures.

Just some rumblings

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