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4hv.org :: Forums :: Electromagnetic Radiation
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3C18P as xray tube?

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alf
Tue Jun 18 2013, 10:22AM Print
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
Hi,

I need a vacuum tube to use as an xray tube, and apparently the 2X2A works well, but they don't seem to be very cheap to get in the UK
I found 2 3C18P HV rectifier tubes on ebay for £4.74 Link2

Those are a bit smaller than a 2X2A so sparks may jump from one end to the other I suppose, but with appropriate insulation it should work fine to produce xrays?

In the datasheet it says:

Anode voltage: 100V
Maximum reverse anode voltage: 25KV


What is the "Anode voltage". This is obviously not the maximum rated voltage for the tube, as it is a high voltage rectifier tube. Perhaps this is the voltage drop across the tube at 25KV?


Thanks, Alf.

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Proud Mary
Tue Jun 18 2013, 12:25PM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
I think the Russian translation is a bit dodgy here: this part is what was called a 'booster diode' in UK thermionic valve TV terminology. It is not a 'kenotron' - an old term for a HV thermionic diode rectifier as used in, for example, the power supply of X-ray sets.

The "Anode voltage: 100V" means the voltage relative to the cathode, the voltage drop across the device when the valve is conducting.

On the half-cycle when the diode is not conducting, it can withstand 25 kV.

I can't comment on the suitability of 3C18P as an X-ray source, though clearly field emission will occur if the valve is operated at 25 kV with a failed or disconnected heater supply.

While the pictures don't show any special internal shielding, as one does see on some Soviet-era colour TV HT stabiliser triodes, it is always possible that the valve envelope may be made of lead glass to attenuate unwanted X-rays.
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alf
Wed Jun 19 2013, 06:31AM
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
Proud Mary wrote ...

I think the Russian translation is a bit dodgy here: this part is what was called a 'booster diode' in UK thermionic valve TV terminology. It is not a 'kenotron' - an old term for a HV thermionic diode rectifier as used in, for example, the power supply of X-ray sets.

The "Anode voltage: 100V" means the voltage relative to the cathode, the voltage drop across the device when the valve is conducting.

On the half-cycle when the diode is not conducting, it can withstand 25 kV.

I can't comment on the suitability of 3C18P as an X-ray source, though clearly field emission will occur if the valve is operated at 25 kV with a failed or disconnected heater supply.

While the pictures don't show any special internal shielding, as one does see on some Soviet-era colour TV HT stabiliser triodes, it is always possible that the valve envelope may be made of lead glass to attenuate unwanted X-rays.



Thanks for the reply.

The "Anode voltage: 100V" means the voltage relative to the cathode, the voltage drop across the device when the valve is conducting.

Wow, that seems very low. How come vacuum tubes arent often used in CW multipliers?


On the half-cycle when the diode is not conducting, it can withstand 25 kV.

When you say it can "withstand" 25KV, do you mean that the maximum voltage at which a spark wont jump between pins and anode cap is 25KV?


I can't comment on the suitability of 3C18P as an X-ray source, though clearly field emission will occur if the valve is operated at 25 kV with a failed or disconnected heater supply.

Well I was thinking of >50KV :D


While the pictures don't show any special internal shielding, as one does see on some Soviet-era colour TV HT stabiliser triodes, it is always possible that the valve envelope may be made of lead glass to attenuate unwanted X-rays.

Ahh. Well I assume that at 50KV, xrays would pass through lead glass, atleast I hope so. Worth a try anyway


Thanks again.

Alf.
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Proud Mary
Wed Jun 19 2013, 10:57AM
Proud Mary Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992
alf wrote ...

The "Anode voltage: 100V" means the voltage relative to the cathode, the voltage drop across the device when the valve is conducting.

Wow, that seems very low. How come vacuum tubes arent often used in CW multipliers?


On the half-cycle when the diode is not conducting, it can withstand 25 kV.

When you say it can "withstand" 25KV, do you mean that the maximum voltage at which a spark wont jump between pins and anode cap is 25KV?


I can't comment on the suitability of 3C18P as an X-ray source, though clearly field emission will occur if the valve is operated at 25 kV with a failed or disconnected heater supply.

Well I was thinking of >50KV :D

While the pictures don't show any special internal shielding, as one does see on some Soviet-era colour TV HT stabiliser triodes, it is always possible that the valve envelope may be made of lead glass to attenuate unwanted X-rays.

Ahh. Well I assume that at 50KV, xrays would pass through lead glass, atleast I hope so. Worth a try anyway

Common booster diode valves like PY80 and PY81 have anode voltages in the range 20 - 40V during conduction.

Thermionic valves are no longer used in C&W generators mainly because of the need for floating filament supplies for each diode, lack of compactness, thermal cycling, and unfavourable MTBF..

By "withstand 25 kV" I meant the Peak Inverse Voltage that the device can withstand without unacceptable risk of failure.

Failure modes for over-volting a HV valve include flashover surface discharge across outside of glass, internal flashover, dielectric puncture of glass, glass electrolysis at seals, and 'softening' of the vacuum by outgassing from the electrodes and glass wall.

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Conundrum
Fri Jun 21 2013, 04:04AM
Conundrum Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059
I'm adding my data point here.
Tried this with a few 5642's (cheap) and DAC32 (old AM radio valve from 12V radio)
At around -7KV enough EUV gets through the fluoroscope screen to activate the phosphors, haven't dared run it any higher for safety reasons.
At this point the tubes were glowing bright blue or green, this apparently shows possible X-ray potential..


EDIT: This was a spectacularly bad idea, the DAC32 didn't survive long. On the flip side I now know to immerse them in oil to stop the tubes eating themselves, and put the whole thing in a lead box with a pyrographite or thin foil window to block the EUV and low energy high BOE X-rays that cause most of the damage.
BTW watch out, said low energy X-rays do not show up on most Geiger counters. A good way to detect them is to use a piece of GdO2 based scintillator screen with its phosphorescent side facing a silicon photodiode or Proud Mary's idea of a CdS photoresistor and a pyrographite "end window".
This seems to work pretty well as long as the rest of the sensor is sealed up to stop light getting in.

An alternate method is to take a piece of failed EL sheet and gut it, taking out the light emitting layer and sticking it to a piece of pyrographite with a silicon diode underneath connected to a transimpedance amplifier.
This also means you can make accurate measurements of dose at a range of energies by adding a second filter inline to block everything below the half value thickness.

-A
#include "Shielding_dosimeter_etc.h"
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alf
Sat Jun 22 2013, 09:52AM
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
Common booster diode valves like PY80 and PY81 have anode voltages in the range 20 - 40V during conduction.

Thermionic valves are no longer used in C&W generators mainly because of the need for floating filament supplies for each diode, lack of compactness, thermal cycling, and unfavourable MTBF..

By "withstand 25 kV" I meant the Peak Inverse Voltage that the device can withstand without unacceptable risk of failure.

Failure modes for over-volting a HV valve include flashover surface discharge across outside of glass, internal flashover, dielectric puncture of glass, glass electrolysis at seals, and 'softening' of the vacuum by outgassing from the electrodes and glass wall.


Wow floating heater supplies. That didn't even occur to me XD
Right, thanks. I often wondered how a vacuum tube can possibly fail due to overvoltage


Thanks, Alf
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alf
Sat Jun 22 2013, 09:56AM
alf Registered Member #3925 Joined: Fri Jun 03 2011, 10:50AM
Location:
Posts: 121
Conundrum wrote ...

I'm adding my data point here.
Tried this with a few 5642's (cheap) and DAC32 (old AM radio valve from 12V radio)
At around -7KV enough EUV gets through the fluoroscope screen to activate the phosphors, haven't dared run it any higher for safety reasons.
At this point the tubes were glowing bright blue or green, this apparently shows possible X-ray potential..


EDIT: This was a spectacularly bad idea, the DAC32 didn't survive long. On the flip side I now know to immerse them in oil to stop the tubes eating themselves, and put the whole thing in a lead box with a pyrographite or thin foil window to block the EUV and low energy high BOE X-rays that cause most of the damage.
BTW watch out, said low energy X-rays do not show up on most Geiger counters. A good way to detect them is to use a piece of GdO2 based scintillator screen with its phosphorescent side facing a silicon photodiode or Proud Mary's idea of a CdS photoresistor and a pyrographite "end window".
This seems to work pretty well as long as the rest of the sensor is sealed up to stop light getting in.

An alternate method is to take a piece of failed EL sheet and gut it, taking out the light emitting layer and sticking it to a piece of pyrographite with a silicon diode underneath connected to a transimpedance amplifier.
This also means you can make accurate measurements of dose at a range of energies by adding a second filter inline to block everything below the half value thickness.

-A
#include "Shielding_dosimeter_etc.h"

7kv. Wow very low voltage

I was thinking to maybe use 100kv (if I can possibly reach that with a CW multiplier)
And shielding it to remove the soft x-rays, allowing the hard ones to be detected with a geiger counter

And I was thinking that I'm just gonna spend a couple more pounds and get a 2X2A anyway lol
Its only like £7 compared to £5. And I know it will work


Thanks for the reply.

Alf.
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