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4hv.org :: Forums :: Projects
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HV Desk Toy

Author Post
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Tue May 27 2008, 11:23PM Print View
Registered Member #56
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2435
I needed a birthday present for my sweetheart, so I decided that a new desk toy was in order

To keep things nonletal and simple, I decided to build on TDUs Candybox HV and use a camera charger (sans pcb, just the transformer, transistor, startup resistor and rectifier diode) to charge up a 6uf/450v cap (2x 3uf/450v in parallel) which is shorted into a 5 turn primary on a flybakck transformer using a 220v SIDAC.

Shrinking the charger circuit and adding the storage caps/SIDAC:



Add some power and a transformer, then start to build it into a box I built out of some leftover hardwood floring


Finished product:
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Spedy
Wed May 28 2008, 12:23AM
Registered Member #964
Joined: Wed Aug 22 2007, 12:39AM
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 134
Thats pretty cool! I would build one of these things but SIDACS are expensive from the sources I know of..
Hope she likes it!
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Dr. Dark Current
Wed May 28 2008, 01:29PM
Registered Member #152
Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 03:36PM
Location: Czech Rep.
Posts: 3384
That looks pretty cool, especially with the two bare wires sticking from it... I bet everyone would guess what does it do even without applying the power!



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flannelhead
Wed May 28 2008, 01:59PM
Registered Member #952
Joined: Mon Aug 13 2007, 11:07AM
Location: Finland
Posts: 388
Now as you got into the disposable camera business, why not to make her a small camera transformer powered SGTC?
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Wed May 28 2008, 02:33PM
Registered Member #56
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2435
Of course she liked it, although the first thing she wanted to do with it after she saw it was set something on fire with it

I was considering a sgtc/sstc, but decided that the simpler the better, since she is heading off to college (Notre Dame, Indiana) in a few months, so I am not going to be able to mess with it if it gets out of tune.
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Weston
Thu May 29 2008, 03:07AM
Registered Member #1316
Joined: Thu Feb 14 2008, 03:35AM
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 348
Was the fly back a trigger coil? Could you direct me to a site that explains how to simplify the flash cameras, i have been planing to make something like this for months now.
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teslacoolguy
Thu May 29 2008, 03:50AM
Registered Member #1107
Joined: Thu Nov 08 2007, 10:09PM
Location:
Posts: 792
the flyback is being used as a pulse transformer and the camera circut charges the capacitors and then the sidac discharges them into the primary coil.
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flannelhead
Thu May 29 2008, 12:51PM
Registered Member #952
Joined: Mon Aug 13 2007, 11:07AM
Location: Finland
Posts: 388
Weston wrote ...

Was the fly back a trigger coil? Could you direct me to a site that explains how to simplify the flash cameras, i have been planing to make something like this for months now.

There's a fine tutorial on Youtube. However, not all charger circuits are the same. That tutorial works only for particular flash boards.

Another way is to do a bit of reverse-engineering to find out which parts belong to the capacitor charger circuit. Or you may find a ready-made schematic for your board with a little googling. If you're lucky, it's just a transistor, a resistor and the transformer. Desolder the parts from the board and make your own, more compact version.
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rp181
Thu May 29 2008, 03:12PM
Registered Member #1062
Joined: Tue Oct 16 2007, 02:01AM
Location:
Posts: 1529
wouldn't the two caps in seris be 900v and 1.5uf?
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...
Thu May 29 2008, 09:46PM
Registered Member #56
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2435
@weston, The charger was made by just looking at the traces on the charger pcb, and soldering the components on to their respective locations. Luckily the board I had was very simple, so it was easy to find which components were necessary.

@rp181, the caps are wires in parallel, the tvs fires at 220v so it was not necessary to have more than one series capacitor.
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Weston
Thu May 29 2008, 09:55PM
Registered Member #1316
Joined: Thu Feb 14 2008, 03:35AM
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 348
Yes but how does they flyback circuit work? there is 5 windings Verse the 6 that other designs use.
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Fri May 30 2008, 12:38AM
Registered Member #56
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2435
by the flyback circuit I assume you mean the camera charger? I honestly don't know what magic occurs in that circuit, I just took the parts off of the camera pcb and soldered remade the circuit without the pcb. The board I started with only had the 1 resistor and 1 transistor on it (aside from the rectifier diode and trigger circuit).
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Firefox
Fri May 30 2008, 03:27AM
Registered Member #1389
Joined: Thu Mar 13 2008, 12:50AM
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 346
It is hard to tell from the pictures, but are the caps discharged directly into the winding as a short? Or is there more to it than that? I just got a hold of 5 CRT monitors and I have three of the boards out already, and I as I was thinking of things to do with them, I stumbled onto this. I was thinking perhaps of using my mini CW multiplier to charge up one of my homemade 22uF 20kV caps and dumping it into something like this, but somehow that doesn't seem like a good idea.
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Arcstarter
Fri May 30 2008, 03:39AM
Registered Member #1225
Joined: Sat Jan 12 2008, 01:24AM
Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA
Posts: 2252
Firefox wrote ...

It is hard to tell from the pictures, but are the caps discharged directly into the winding as a short? Or is there more to it than that? I just got a hold of 5 CRT monitors and I have three of the boards out already, and I as I was thinking of things to do with them, I stumbled onto this. I was thinking perhaps of using my mini CW multiplier to charge up one of my homemade 22uF 20kV caps and dumping it into something like this, but somehow that doesn't seem like a good idea.


Your kidding me right? Not about the idea, but the thing about a homemade 22uf capacitor? How did you do that?!

Anyway, i don't think a flyback could handle that. If you already have 20kv why do you need anymore? The only way to get a whole lot more is a tesla coil. Ha i am prolly wrong about that. You can use a marx generator. My favorite is uzzors's. It was made with all simple stuff, but produces quite a spark!
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Firefox
Fri May 30 2008, 03:59AM
Registered Member #1389
Joined: Thu Mar 13 2008, 12:50AM
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 346
Oops, I meant 22nF heh. Or I just used 1000 of my 22nF caps to make a 22uF cap. But in all seriousness, do you think a flyback could handle a 20kV input pulse for that split second?
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Arcstarter
Fri May 30 2008, 04:35AM
Registered Member #1225
Joined: Sat Jan 12 2008, 01:24AM
Location: Beaumont, Texas, USA
Posts: 2252
Firefox wrote ...

Oops, I meant 22nF heh. Or I just used 1000 of my 22nF caps to make a 22uF cap. But in all seriousness, do you think a flyback could handle a 20kV input pulse for that split second?

Well i did make a flyback driver with a tesla coil circuit. It was about 2kv transformer from a bug zapper and it was a .5nf capacitor. I would say that the flyback failed shortly after because i drove it too hard with that circuit, but it was a very small flyback putting out quite long but thin sparks.
I would say if you kept the gap small on the flyback output and the trigger gap on the cap(figuring you would use a spark gap as a trigger)it could probably go through a few pulses( more like 100's).
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rp181
Fri May 30 2008, 01:14PM
Registered Member #1062
Joined: Tue Oct 16 2007, 02:01AM
Location:
Posts: 1529
heh, i tried that with a SGTC, arcs were crappy.
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Weston
Sun Jun 22 2008, 02:12AM
Registered Member #1316
Joined: Thu Feb 14 2008, 03:35AM
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 348
does anyone know if it would work with two inverse flash bulb trigger coils? They output over 5kv.
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Sun Jun 22 2008, 02:16AM
Registered Member #56
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2435
You could use the trigger coil, although they have a limited amount of power that they can output. It is certinly worth a try!
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teslacoolguy
Sun Jun 22 2008, 03:17AM
Registered Member #1107
Joined: Thu Nov 08 2007, 10:09PM
Location:
Posts: 792
i have overdriven a trigger coil up to 10kv without any problems but the spark was very dim and i couldent feel anything when i used my finger as an electrode.
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Zeus
Thu Nov 12 2009, 12:55AM
Registered Member #2316
Joined: Tue Aug 25 2009, 03:04AM
Location: Bendigo, Australia
Posts: 107
In regards to pulsing LOPTs with 20Kv I pulse 8Kv into an ignition coil from my four stage multiplier made
with MOCs and driven by a MOT. The multiplier is the discharge cap as well as a means of increasing voltage.
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Thu Nov 12 2009, 05:01AM
Registered Member #56
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2435
Wow, talk about reviving old threads!

In any case, you won't really get a whole lot more output with a 20kv capacitor vs my 400v capacitor, because the output voltage is limited primarily by core saturation (which scales as the inverse of maximum flux density in the core * core area), so a higher voltage pulse doesn't really help.

You can get improvement by increasing the pulse energy, which will give a hotter spark, and I believe to a lesser degree by using a faster pulse, or using a larger gap in the flyback core.

And while I am here I should post some relevant information:
-yes- the caps are shorted directly into a 5 turn primary using a 220v SIDAC, no fanciness involved.

-I have written a web page which has slightly more (if not just different) information about the system up at (although be warned we are doing server maintenance, and the link may be intermittent over the next week or so)
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