Welcome
Username:

Password:


Remember me

[ ]
[ ]
Online
Guests: 18, Members: 0 ...

most ever online: 333
(Members: 3, Guests: 330) on 06 Jun : 15:15

Members: 3376
Newest member: mike_van_eman
Members Birthdays:
All today's birthdays', congrats!
cjk2 (27)
Alessandro (25)
Andrew L. (26)
bwsparxz (44)
Bonehead (27)
Tetris (20)


Next birthdays
06/28 cjk2 (27)
06/28 Alessandro (25)
06/28 Andrew L. (26)
Contact
If you need assistance, please send an email to forum at 4hv dot org. To ensure your email is not marked as spam, please include the phrase "4hv help" in the subject line. You can also find assistance via IRC, at irc.shadowworld.net, room #hvcomm.
Support 4hv.org!
Donate:
4hv.org is hosted on a dedicated server. Unfortunately, this server costs and we rely on the help of site members to keep 4hv.org running. Please consider donating. We will place your name on the thanks list and you'll be helping to keep 4hv.org alive and free for everyone. Members whose names appear in red bold have donated recently. Green bold denotes those who have recently donated to keep the server carbon neutral.


Special Thanks To:
  • Aaron Holmes
  • Aaron Wheeler
  • Adam Horden
  • Alan Scrimgeour
  • Andre
  • Andrew Haynes
  • Anonymous000
  • asabase
  • Austin Weil
  • barney
  • Barry
  • Bert Hickman
  • Bill Kukowski
  • Blitzorn
  • Brandon Paradelas
  • Bruce Bowling
  • BubeeMike
  • Byong Park
  • Cesiumsponge
  • Chris F.
  • Chris Hooper
  • Corey Worthington
  • Derek Woodroffe
  • Dalus
  • Dan Strother
  • Daniel Davis
  • Daniel Uhrenholt
  • datasheetarchive
  • Dave Billington
  • Dave Marshall
  • David F.
  • Dennis Rogers
  • drelectrix
  • Dr. John Gudenas
  • Dr. Spark
  • E.TexasTesla
  • eastvoltresearch
  • Eirik Taylor
  • Erik Dyakov
  • Erlend^SE
  • Finn Hammer
  • Firebug24k
  • GalliumMan
  • Gary Peterson
  • George Slade
  • GhostNull
  • Gordon Mcknight
  • Graham Armitage
  • Grant
  • GreySoul
  • Henry H
  • IamSmooth
  • In memory of Leo Powning
  • Jacob Cash
  • James Howells
  • James Pawson
  • Jeff Greenfield
  • Jeff Thomas
  • Jesse Frost
  • Jim Mitchell
  • jlr134
  • Joe Mastroianni
  • John Forcina
  • John Oberg
  • John Willcutt
  • Jon Newcomb
  • klugesmith
  • Leslie Wright
  • Lutz Hoffman
  • Mads Barnkob
  • Martin King
  • Mats Karlsson
  • Matt Gibson
  • Matthew Guidry
  • mbd
  • Michael D'Angelo
  • Mikkel
  • mileswaldron
  • mister_rf
  • Neil Foster
  • Nick de Smith
  • Nick Soroka
  • nicklenorp
  • Nik
  • Norman Stanley
  • Patrick Coleman
  • Paul Brodie
  • Paul Jordan
  • Paul Montgomery
  • Ped
  • Peter Krogen
  • Peter Terren
  • PhilGood
  • Richard Feldman
  • Robert Bush
  • Royce Bailey
  • Scott Fusare
  • Scott Newman
  • smiffy
  • Stella
  • Steven Busic
  • Steve Conner
  • Steve Jones
  • Steve Ward
  • Sulaiman
  • Thomas Coyle
  • Thomas A. Wallace
  • Thomas W
  • Timo
  • Torch
  • Ulf Jonsson
  • vasil
  • Vaxian
  • vladi mazzilli
  • wastehl
  • Weston
  • William Kim
  • William N.
  • William Stehl
  • Wesley Venis
The aforementioned have contributed financially to the continuing triumph of 4hv.org. They are deserving of my most heartfelt thanks.
Forums
4hv.org :: Forums :: High Voltage
<< Previous thread | Next thread >>   

Plasma Vortex

Go to page  [1] 2
Author Post
Wilson
Sat Mar 11 2006, 12:15PM Print View
Registered Member #78
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 11:27AM
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 133
I was playing with HV from a FBT yesterday and noticed a strange effect- By holding an electrode over the centre of a ferrite ring magnet from a microwave, the plasma forms a vortex. Reversing the connections results in a reversal in the spin direction.

Any comments on why this occurs?

I have an unsubstantiated theory that there is a force acting on the plasma arc , similar to how a force acts on a conductor in a magnetic field, such as in a motor, producing a spinning effect.
Either that or the plasma with all its loose electrons is responding in some unique fashion to the magnetic field.

Either way its a rather cool party trick

Enjoy the Video
(Ignore the unsafe tofu container, lol)
Back to top
...
Sat Mar 11 2006, 06:27PM
Registered Member #56
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:02AM
Location: Southern Califorina, USA
Posts: 2435
wow!

That sort of reminds me of my quasi water diode experiments. The plasma was less dense than normal where it touched the water, so I guess that made it more unstable and thus it could give erratic behavior?
Back to top
Website
Madgyver
Sat Mar 11 2006, 07:14PM
Registered Member #177
Joined: Wed Feb 15 2006, 02:16PM
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 214
Actually its a simliar effect like in a cylcotron.

Check out this page (german):

Back to top
Website
Sulaiman
Sat Mar 11 2006, 07:54PM
Registered Member #162
Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2780
Nice One !!!
That was fascinating, well done.
I've been 'playing' with high voltages on and off for 30 years
and never seen that before, never even thought about it.

You'd better Copyright it - could be the next Plasma Globe/lava lamp etc.

P.S.
The current in the arc will experience a force at right angles with both the current and the magnetic field, (Fleming’s Left Hand Rule etc.)
Each ion in the arc is electrostacically attracted to the electrode/magnet
and gets 'pushed' sideways continuously by the magnetic field
this continuous sideways acceleration produces a spiral in the direction of the electrode
- your vortex.
You have effectively re-invented Faraday's motor
using plasma instead of wire.

Sounds like there's a fortune to be made on eBay under 'New Age'
Back to top
vasil
Sat Mar 11 2006, 08:25PM
Registered Member #229
Joined: Tue Feb 21 2006, 07:33PM
Location: Romania
Posts: 506
I wonder how would behave an arc between two ferrite rings, covered with alu foil and connected to the HV terminals. It would rotate?
Back to top
Website
Tipp
Sun Mar 12 2006, 01:59AM
Registered Member #215
Joined: Sun Feb 19 2006, 09:14PM
Location:
Posts: 30
Thats extremely cool, nice job.

Magnets + HV = some very intresting effects
Back to top
Omicron
Sun Mar 12 2006, 04:20AM
Registered Member #131
Joined: Fri Feb 10 2006, 09:25PM
Location:
Posts: 185

Could it be the magnet is pushing out some of the ions and pulling some in? That would make a twister effect. I have used strong magnets to move Alpha and Beta particles.
Back to top
Wilson
Sun Mar 12 2006, 06:55AM
Registered Member #78
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 11:27AM
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 133
I made another video. This time with 2 magnets separated with 2 ceramic spacers, and no water.
Here's the link

It is interesting to note that the top magnet is not connected to GND like the bottom one.
The 2nd vortex while forms is also rather unstable

Enjoy
Back to top
the_anomaly
Sun Mar 12 2006, 04:03PM
Registered Member #19
Joined: Thu Feb 02 2006, 03:19PM
Location: St. Aug, Florida
Posts: 107
Well I had to do some playing and found some cool effects. If you increase the voltage the arc seems to spin faster. I’m using a flyback (dc) powered by the ZVS flyback driver powered from a variac. increasing voltage

The highest I tried was about 40 volts because my variac was nearing its current capacity(5amps).

And also when arcing to strong Nd magnets the arc seems to widen where it touches the magnet.touching magnet

The camera does not do justice. This is really cool if you try it yourself.
Back to top
cjk2
Sun Mar 12 2006, 07:36PM
Registered Member #51
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:17AM
Location: Tennessee Tech University, Cookeville, TN, USA
Posts: 263
Well after seeing others results I wanted to try this myself. I used a 1" "Super magnet" in the experiment below. I also tried with a magnetron magnet but it was not as impressive. Its cool how the entire surface of the magnet seems to glow rather than one small point like you would expect. and arc also seems to like dancing in a circular pattern instead of staying in one place. I powered the setup with my "super ZVS" using just 30v in of filtered DC. I would have gone with a higher input voltage, but the core was spraying corona to the secondary because the power supply was just a variac and not isolated from the mains...

Video

and a picture:



Edit: Trying it inside the microwave magnet is really cool! The plasma spins so fast you just see a bright disk of gas.
Back to top
Tipp
Sun Mar 12 2006, 08:06PM
Registered Member #215
Joined: Sun Feb 19 2006, 09:14PM
Location:
Posts: 30
Seeing as everyone else was having fun, I decided to join in

I used different amounts of extremely strong [50 lb carrying capacity each ] Nd magnets and used them as ground. I was running approx 35-40 kV DC via one of my flybacks. The arc didn't seem to want to stay in one place, it kinda ran around the edge of the magnet (3/4" in dia) and flickered around. Very intresting...

Don't have any pics, seeing as I dont have a nice digi cam to record with Maybe someday...

I've been scavenging old disposable cameras for cap bank lately, so I have a TON of flahstubes and neon indicator lamps I've desoldered lying around. I'm going to make a huge chain of them and see how many I can light up
Back to top
mikeselectricstuff
Sun Mar 12 2006, 08:50PM
Registered Member #311
Joined: Sun Mar 12 2006, 08:28PM
Location:
Posts: 253
I think the physics are pretty straightforward - Fleming's Left-Hand rule. Current+magnetic field = force, in this case on the stream of ionised air. The fact it's form a FBT means it will be (pulsed) dc, so movement will be in a consistent direction. AC would probaby behave noticeably differently (and if you could switch the polarity of the DC supply you could maybe get some interesting effects...)
I did some sort-of related stuff a while ago bending plasma streams in a xenon flashtube with a magnet :
Back to top
Website
cjk2
Sun Mar 12 2006, 09:04PM
Registered Member #51
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:17AM
Location: Tennessee Tech University, Cookeville, TN, USA
Posts: 263
Here's a try with a ceramic magnet.

Back to top
Sam
Mon Mar 13 2006, 12:40AM
Registered Member #227
Joined: Mon Feb 20 2006, 10:47PM
Location: Cambridge Ontario, Canada!!
Posts: 127
I read this tonight I I ran down to the bat cave!(my shop) shoved everything off my bench and oooooooooh! I like. I had the magnets of the 3 MO I just took apart.

I have a video but know clue how to post it... 'lil help?
Back to top
cjk2
Mon Mar 13 2006, 12:45AM
Registered Member #51
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:17AM
Location: Tennessee Tech University, Cookeville, TN, USA
Posts: 263
Try uploading your video to putfile.com and then just link to it here.
Back to top
skmetal7
Mon Mar 13 2006, 01:33AM
Registered Member #101
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:12PM
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 41
I just tried this, its kewl!

http://media.putfile.com/Vortex27
Back to top
Wilson
Mon Mar 13 2006, 04:54AM
Registered Member #78
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 11:27AM
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 133
lol, i've excited plasma vortex fever into everyone.

I'm still trying to make a hour glass shaped vortex, as well as an upside down one. Although admittely i don't have much time as term 1 exams are coming soon...
Back to top
GimpyJoe
Mon Mar 13 2006, 02:20PM
Registered Member #316
Joined: Mon Mar 13 2006, 01:30PM
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 212
I tried this yesterday with a half-wave rectified NST. It spun, but very slowly and with a jerky motion. I think this may only work with a higher frequency. I'll try again today with my 12kv 120ma NST stack.
Back to top
cjk2
Mon Mar 13 2006, 04:52PM
Registered Member #51
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:17AM
Location: Tennessee Tech University, Cookeville, TN, USA
Posts: 263
To make the arc stable you probably need high frequency AC to rectify to DC. If you try to rectify an NST you need some kind of filter cap on the output to make it stable.
Back to top
Sam
Mon Mar 13 2006, 07:24PM
Registered Member #227
Joined: Mon Feb 20 2006, 10:47PM
Location: Cambridge Ontario, Canada!!
Posts: 127
I just used a staight ignition coil, But a have a frequency adjust on the driver, the higher the frequency the faster it spins


^^^^^Thats when I tried under salk water and with MOTs
Back to top
Nik
Mon Mar 13 2006, 07:56PM
Registered Member #53
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:31AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 627
I was jsut thinking about using a mot but you saved me a good 30min of prep. Maby with a full wave rectifier and a big filter cap a mot or NST would work better.
Back to top
Website
EEYORE
Wed Mar 15 2006, 06:58PM
Registered Member #99
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:10PM
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 637
Ive got an idea for you guys...What about replacing the magnet with a coil of wire which is pulsed(like a coil gun). The ions from the flyback would be attracted and accelerated much like a coilgun no?

Seems you would need to find a way to insulate the coil so as to keep it from arcing, and have a target wire or something on the other end?

Matt
Back to top
Wilson
Thu Mar 16 2006, 04:36AM
Registered Member #78
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 11:27AM
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 133
Sounds interesting, but the plasma quickly returns back to normal air once the energy source is removed

You might be able to get something interesting with an air cored electromagnet, 2 electrodes at the openings, and setting up an oscillating magnetic field.
Back to top
ragnar
Thu Mar 16 2006, 08:14AM
Registered Member #63
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:18AM
Location:
Posts: 1423
Doesn't quench all *that* quickly... with larger plumes of plasma, you can easily see, and capture on camera, the extinguishing plasma:

I considered pushing the plasma with a magnetic field, but someone convinced me it wasn't worth my time. I'll make a point of trying, now!





Back to top
Marcus Wagner
Thu Jul 27 2006, 11:47PM
Registered Member #486
Joined: Sun Jul 09 2006, 01:18AM
Location: Germany/Hessen/Hanau
Posts: 9
Hello everybody!

When I came across this forum past year I was very astonished about the royer/marzilli circuit.... I build one myself and did some experiments. Here are some pic which tell more than 1000 words.

Greets,

Marcus
Back to top
Marcus Wagner
Fri Jul 28 2006, 12:04AM
Registered Member #486
Joined: Sun Jul 09 2006, 01:18AM
Location: Germany/Hessen/Hanau
Posts: 9
does this work? no.. sorry... cant upload the attachments.... why?


please look here to see the pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/18346774@N00/page9/
Back to top
Kolas
Fri Jul 28 2006, 01:59AM
Registered Member #102
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:15PM
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 164
Wow guys, you might be on to something.

Does it work best with DC or AC?

If I hadn't killed every flyback in my zip code, I would have treid what I'm about to sujest.

Why not try the pulsed coil idea, but instead of a "DC" feild try an alternating feild. I guess a DC HV source would be best....

I think finding a way to force the plasma to move away form the magnet would be the direction to take here.

Have "yall" tried somthing with a much higher voltage, like 50-100kV and a considerable ditance, like 3-5? It would be very neat to see this vortex take on a tornadic shape.

Kolas
Back to top
Steve Ward
Fri Jul 28 2006, 04:47AM
Registered Member #146
Joined: Sun Feb 12 2006, 04:21AM
Location: Austin Tx
Posts: 1055
Have "yall" tried somthing with a much higher voltage, like 50-100kV and a considerable ditance, like 3-5? It would be very neat to see this vortex take on a tornadic shape.


When i start feeling better i will try this out with my CW, which can easily do 120-160kV, which is a striking distance of maybe 8" or so. Im not sure if i have powerful enough magnets, but i have some from magnetrons and some 4" diameter donuts from speakers. Worth a shot i guess...
Back to top
Website
EDY19
Fri Jul 28 2006, 05:47AM
Registered Member #105
Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:54PM
Location:
Posts: 408
I have no idea if this is even reasonable or not, but what would happen if an arc was syncronized to extinguish inside of the coil of a coilgun just as the coilgun was fired? Just an Idea...
Back to top
McFluffin
Sat Jul 29 2006, 08:18AM
Registered Member #119
Joined: Fri Feb 10 2006, 06:26AM
Location: USA
Posts: 114
It has been said that the spin depends on polarity of the voltage. Is this true for the magnets as well? If so and one tried something higher voltage, it might be interesting to alternate the polarity of some magnets and see what happens. Maybe it would just wave back and forth.
Back to top
Website
Go to page  [1] 2

Moderators: Chris Russell, Noelle, Alex, Tesladownunder, Dave Marshall, Bjørn, Dave Billington, Steve Conner, Wolfram, Kizmo, Mads Barnkob

Jump:     Back to top

Powered by e107 Forum System
 
Legal Information
This site is powered by e107, which is released under the GNU GPL License. All work on this site, except where otherwise noted, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License. By submitting any information to this site, you agree that anything submitted will be so licensed. Please read our Disclaimer and Policies page for information on your rights and responsibilities regarding this site.