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The problem with dangerous chemicals

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Conundrum

Mon Apr 24 2017, 07:16PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059

Hi all.

Given recent events, the issue has been raised of dangerous chemicals (eg sulphuric acid, drain cleaner, lye etc) being available to the general public without restriction.

Should we consider a blanket ban on purchasing these, for anyone who cannot prove that their intended application is safe, and/or anyone who cannot demonstrate via relevant qualification the knowledge to handle them safely
For that matter, should lead acid batteries of the flooded type be modified to prevent recovery of the acid (eg glass beads etc) and the older variety removed from sale as these are often how potential criminals get hold of acid for other mischief such as bio-diesel production and illegal fuel laundering in the first place.

I for one would hate to see chemistry hobbyists punished further, but when the outcome of even a minor exposure can have lifelong effects should we err on the side of caution?

Discuss.

2Spoons

Mon Apr 24 2017, 10:40PM

Registered Member #2939 Joined: Fri Jun 25 2010, 04:25AM
Location:
Posts: 615

If someone has a desire to hurt other people, they will find a way - no matter how hard you try to take away all the "dangerous" things. Look at the recent attacks using vehicles as weapons. Are you going to ban kitchen knives next, except for trained chefs?
I think the only place bans and controls should be exercised is for things that are actually intended as weapons - eg guns, and explosives.

Sulaiman

Tue Apr 25 2017, 12:33AM

Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140

I can't imagine criminals having to use battery acid in UK,
96% sulphuric acid has been very easy to buy ... until recently.
My local hardware shops no longer stock it,
even eBay stopped for a while, back on sale now,
Amazon.uk has had sulfuric acid continuously available.

With sulphuric acid I can synthesise most other acids,
so the loss of this resource would be significant to me as a hobby chemist.

Sulfuric acid is one of the largest-volume industrial chemicals produced in the world.

so absolute control would be difficult.

OTOH sulphuric acid is easily used as a very nasty weapon,
but so are laundry bleaches and bricks.

Rather than banning stuff, proper education and if that fails, punishment, is better.
e.g. if folk know that gbh via acid is 10 years minimum, there will be very few acid attacks.

Hazmatt_(The Underdog)

Tue Apr 25 2017, 01:17AM

Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735

BOLLOCKS!

I spent a lot of time thinking of legitimate reasons for chemicals when I needed them.

Drain cleaner (which is really line cleaner) For the line! its that obvious!

Lye.. you have some hard to remove grease stains on your concrete... just as easy an excuse.

Bucket of pool bleach tablets.. so you own a pool... and you're not secretly making perchlorates.

It's that easy.

And if you want to get the good stuff, all you need to do is file for a business license, and you can buy anything, at least that's the way it is here in the states.

Sulaiman

Tue Apr 25 2017, 04:05AM

Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140

a quick google earth view will show that I use pool tablets for other purposes ;)

Carbon_Rod

Tue Apr 25 2017, 05:18AM

Registered Member #65 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 06:43AM
Location:
Posts: 1155

We use quite a bit of sodium hydroxide as metal cleaner, and Xylene in manufacturing.
If your buy over 1 kg, than your driver license is recorded at the shop... so police can theoretically identify individuals amassing large quantities. Almost no retailers will carry laboratory grade chemicals anymore, as most industrial processes have simply been moved to developing countries.

H2O in pools harms more people every year than fools attempting to create elicit substances. However, the consumer culture combined with a well known psychological phenomena... makes the idea of controlling that which people don't understand desirable.

The fact that successful civilizations are a group of individuals that choose to forgo unenlightened self-interest escapes sociopaths. Unfortunately, chemistry as a hobby is now considered taboo by those that see no immediate benefit from an unpackaged product with no predefined context of usage:

Sociologically speaking, science has traditionally been marginalized given it exposes the hypocrisy of those that violate the very core of what defines commonsense. We are living in an age where modern witch-hunts help marginalized people feel safer, but idealized ignorance ultimately ensures a caste separation of indentured consumers and wealthy meritocrats.

Conundrum

Tue Apr 25 2017, 06:43AM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059

Perhaps a token gesture, to require an up to date passport before handing over anything dangerous. Also proof of at least basic chemical safety (hint: if you are buying lye and do not have proper safety goggles and gloves, you probably don't)
Minor change but it would help discourage idiots and keep everyone that bit safer.

dexter

Tue Apr 25 2017, 08:47AM

Registered Member #42796 Joined: Mon Jan 13 2014, 06:34PM
Location:
Posts: 195

Conundrum wrote ...

Perhaps a token gesture, to require an up to date passport before handing over anything dangerous. Also proof of at least basic chemical safety (hint: if you are buying lye and do not have proper safety goggles and gloves, you probably don't)
Minor change but it would help discourage idiots and keep everyone that bit safer.

safety instructions on the package are more than enough so no need for a nanny state

Dr. Slack

Tue Apr 25 2017, 09:07AM

Registered Member #72 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 08:29AM
Location: UK St. Albans
Posts: 1659

dexter wrote ...

safety instructions on the package are more than enough so no need for a nanny state

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I had some 99% sulphuric, and a colleague at work wanted a little to play with (amateur chemist, experienced electronic engineer, degree, knew how many beans made 5). So I took it into work and decanted some into a dry bottle he'd brought in.

He turned up the next day looking very sheepish, showed me the charred and holed bottle, and explained how he'd fortunately avoided personal injury or significant property damage. 99% sulphuric rots slowly through PET, slow enough that we didn't notice it on decanting.

It says 'keep in original container' on the container, which was polythene. Two people who should know better didn't think hard enough about the different susceptibility of different plastics.

Conundrum

Tue Apr 25 2017, 07:34PM

Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059

<soapbox>
I point out that the folks attacked recently, two lost eyes and the others have serious scarring.
No amount of reconstructive surgery can repair this, in India its a real problem that unfortunately is complicated by
artisanal gold mining often from illegally imported e-waste from Europe and elsewhere sent over in bulk in total defiance
of the Basel convention with the residual heavy metals ending up in rivers and slowly poisoning folks.

Apparently the damage is serious enough that the ruined eye(s) had to be removed completely to prevent the
unaffected eyes also losing sight due to some sort of immune reaction,

Please consider that sending your recovered gold off to a professional company for processing and/or PCB manufacturing
is a lot safer than trying to save a few $$$ and ending up with a Superfund site.

</soapbox>

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