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4hv.org :: Forums :: Chemistry
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Themite mixtures

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Andy
Mon Apr 06 2015, 05:02AM Print
Andy Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874
Hi, ive changed my mind about platic and firbeglass sub, instead make the whole thing out off aluminum alloys tig welded.
As the whole thing will be one large heat sink, and a natural water tempture about 10 C, im looking at making a heat source that can raise oil of a certain amount upto 40 C.
It has to safe to some degree, preferable a slow reaction.

So far Ive got copper sulphate hydrated as the oxygen source, with a postive entropy of 769.9 kJ/mol
The fuel, aaluminum and magnesium making Al2SO4 with negtive entropy of -3440kJ/mol and MgSO4 with -1278kJ/mol.

What cemistrys will be easy to ignite, maybe pushing Nicochrome wire source, or a liquid igniton.

No pre/clorate,and only small nirtrate just as a ignite part, and no gases made.

Cheers all.
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Sulaiman
Mon Apr 06 2015, 12:28PM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
The topic is well covered in sciencemadness, e.g. Link2
a search there for "thermite" will keep you busy for a while

pyrotechnics forums will likely have most answers but I'm not familiar with any.

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Andy
Mon Apr 06 2015, 05:35PM
Andy Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874
Thanks, used google abit more and it looks like CuO and Al with 10grams of CuO and 2.26 grams of Al, makes 120.19kJ, with a 150gram Al container which will reach 900 Degrees and melt, not sure on the solid ti liquard changing transtion.

Do you have a idea to ignite the mixture, with 1 sec for it to drop into a pipe?
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Sulaiman
Mon Apr 06 2015, 06:45PM
Sulaiman Registered Member #162 Joined: Mon Feb 13 2006, 10:25AM
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3140
sorry, you're way ahead of me, not an interest of mine, no experience,
I can't help ..... maybe others?
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Dédé!
Mon Apr 06 2015, 08:46PM
Dédé! Registered Member #4932 Joined: Thu May 17 2012, 01:42PM
Location:
Posts: 59
Don't many people use potassium permanganate with glycerol?
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Andy
Mon Apr 06 2015, 11:13PM
Andy Registered Member #4266 Joined: Fri Dec 16 2011, 03:15AM
Location:
Posts: 874
I will be trying it, but would like to minmize gases if any. Just trying to get a whole range of ideas.
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Enceladus
Thu Feb 09 2017, 06:22AM
Enceladus Registered Member #61428 Joined: Sat Jan 14 2017, 12:39PM
Location:
Posts: 50
Why not just insulate it and make up the rest with electric heat? Seems like oxygen would kind of be at a premium in a sub. If you've got your heart set on using chemicals why don't you gradually hydrate some concentrated H2SO4 or NaOH? Or you could do both at once, then gradually combine them.
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Enceladus
Sun Feb 19 2017, 03:50AM
Enceladus Registered Member #61428 Joined: Sat Jan 14 2017, 12:39PM
Location:
Posts: 50
Oxygen candle's would be ideal. I can't believe I didn't think of that before.

From wiki:

Main article: Chemical oxygen generator

"A chlorate candle, or an oxygen candle, is a cylindrical chemical oxygen generator that contains a mix of sodium chlorate and iron powder, which when ignited smolders at about 600 °C (1,112 °F), producing sodium chloride, iron oxide, and at a fixed rate about 6.5 man-hours of oxygen per kilogram of the mixture. The mixture has an indefinite shelf life if stored properly: candles have been stored for 20 years without decreased oxygen output. Thermal decomposition releases the oxygen. The burning iron supplies the heat. The candle must be wrapped in thermal insulation to maintain the reaction temperature and to protect surrounding equipment."

They only mention using sodium chlorate in the above quote, but you can also use potassium chlorate or perchlorate. Potassium chlorate can be prepared very easily by electrolysis of potassium chloride solution. Due to its low solubility compared to KCl, the KClO3 simply precipitates out of solution as it's produced. Upon gentle heating, the KClO3 converts to KClO4 (perchlorate) and KCl. Further heating releases breathable oxygen and the KClO4 decomposes back to KCl, which can be recycled.
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Hazmatt_(The Underdog)
Sun Feb 19 2017, 06:07PM
Hazmatt_(The Underdog) Registered Member #135 Joined: Sat Feb 11 2006, 12:06AM
Location: Anywhere is fine
Posts: 1735
The electrolysis reaction is with HOT NaClO, with Platinum electrodes, and takes a long time. Any Hypochlorite solution will work, Calcium is preferred because of its lower solubility, but actually getting a high yield takes practice, I never succeeded at it, but others have and do regularly.

Also, Perchlorate is more stable then Chlorate, but any contamination of your salt makes it unstable and a storage risk.

Magnesium filings in your mixture are still by far the easiest solution for ignition, for $2.50 you can buy a bar for camping at harbor freight,
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Conundrum
Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:20AM
Conundrum Registered Member #96 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 05:37PM
Location: CI, Earth
Posts: 4059
Yeah, one thing to be very careful with is that any S in your mixture will form metal sulphides. Can you guess why this is bad?

Ironically the "Titanic" is believed to have sunk due to sulphide inclusions in the metal magnifying the damage from the iceberg impact.
That and not having any welding equipment on board, not enough lifeboats, no way to signal other ships because the radio equipment never got tested before sailing, etc.
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