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Legality of hobby radiography

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James

Tue Apr 12 2011, 07:41PM

Registered Member #3610 Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506

I know there are a number of people out there doing hobby radiography, some openly posting their results and others quietly alluding to it. I believe that it's illegal in most parts of the world to do this, and for generally good reasons as it's one of those things that really can cause unseen harm to others if done carelessly. What I'm not sure is where this sort of thing falls. Is it in the category of making drugs or bombs where the authorities are actively trying to stamp it out, or is it the sort of thing where so long as you don't cause any trouble nobody will bother you? Maybe somewhere in between? Is it possible for an ordinary person to do it without breaking the law? I'm lucky to know a veterinary technician in a small clinic so I have occasional access to the real deal, but that's not as intriguing as DIY.

uzzors2k

Tue Apr 12 2011, 09:08PM

Registered Member #95 Joined: Thu Feb 09 2006, 04:57PM
Location: Norway
Posts: 1308

As long as you don't use an x-ray machine recklessly and wind up hurting yourself, or worse yet other people, who's ever going to complain?

Like all great things that become illegal, it's no problem until idiots start doing it. I imagine it would take several kids giving themselves necrosis before it became a problem to construct an x-ray machine. But at the rate people are jumping on x-ray experiments, that may only be a few years in the future for all I know. I'm less worried about legality than I am about newbies getting themselves hurt. That would be a major blow to this hobby.

James

Tue Apr 12 2011, 11:05PM

Registered Member #3610 Joined: Thu Jan 13 2011, 03:29AM
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 506

Who knows, but there's always the chance of being the one guy who somebody decides to make an example of. The way people freak out when they hear "radiation" one may not have to cause any actual harm for someone to throw a fit over it if word gets out. If a neighbor happens to develop cancer I'm not sure how one would ever prove that x ray experiments didn't cause it even if the actual chance is very remote.

You'd need quite a lot of exposure with the sort of equipment a typical hobbyist is likely to acquire to see any immediate injury, but cancer, birth defects and other long term effects can show up years or decades later from much lower doses. I cringe whenever I hear of someone playing with this stuff without at least having a good dosimeter.

Ash Small

Wed Apr 13 2011, 01:04PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

The rules in UK state that any device designed to produce ionizing radiation requires a license.

The fusor brigade get around this by saying that the neutrons and x-rays produced are a by-product of the fusion process, and a fusor is not designed for the purpose of producing them.

Proud Mary

Wed Apr 13 2011, 03:01PM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Ash Small wrote ...

The rules in UK state that any device designed to produce ionizing radiation requires a license.

Where exactly in the UK Ionising Radiation Regulations 1999 is this "rule" "stated" with respect to X-ray equipment not used in the course of employment?

You can read IRR 1999 paragraph by paragraph, and clause by clause, here:

The Health and Safety Executive's interpretation of IRR 1999 limits their prior permission role to "The use of electrical equipment intended to produce X-rays ("X-ray sets") for: industrial radiography; processing of products; research; or exposure of persons for medical treatment."

see HSE: Prior authorisation for the use of electrical equipment intended to produce X-rays here:

Wouldn't it be sensible to check your facts before being a big Silly Billy and passing on ill-informed gossip implying that some UK members of this forum are criminals?

Ash Small

Wed Apr 13 2011, 04:27PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

I (and others) had interpreted this to mean 'any practice' that involves 'The use of electrical equipment intended to produce X-rays', including research.

If you are arguing that hobbyists are not involved in 'research', this sounds a bit dubious (to me) and possibly requires clarification.

EDIT: While I'm sure that the majority of UK radiography hobbyists have no criminal intent, the CPS 'may' consider otherwise. (for example, they 'may' consider hobbyists to be 'self employed'.)

plazmatron

Wed Apr 13 2011, 05:38PM

Registered Member #1134 Joined: Tue Nov 20 2007, 04:39PM
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 351

James wrote ...

I believe that it's illegal in most parts of the world to do this........

No it is not. People think it is, but it isn't. Anyone may purchase or own x-ray generating equipment so long as it is compliant. Examples are baggage of letter scanners, and the Tel Atomic Tel-x-ometer.

The IRR clearly states, that ANY vacuum tube operated above 5kV, falls under their regulations. This includes transmitting tubes, some Magnetrons, and CRT's.
Yes, this means your CRT TV or monitor is considered an x-ray generator, and it too must also be compliant.

The legal issue arises, if through will or negligence, you were to expose any living thing to x-rays, at levels greater than the maximum Dose rates specified.
For hobbyists, read: Do not to expose any living thing under any circumstances, including yourself.

James wrote ...

..........and for generally good reasons as it's one of those things that really can cause unseen harm to others if done carelessly.

As can high levels or RF..... Telsa coils, Magnetrons, transmitting equipment, Lasers, etc, all of these things are in fact regulated.

Ash Small wrote ...

The rules in UK state that any device designed to produce ionizing radiation requires a license.

No, they do not. As Stella says the equipment must be compliant with the guidelines set out in the IRR.

For the hobbyist it goes like this:

Running a bare x-ray tube with any persons present, would land you in a lot of trouble. In fact you would be most assuredly jumped on by the powers that be.

Running an unmodified Dental x-ray machine or similar (ie mostly shielded, but with an accessible beam), may cause concern, but so long as you can prove competence you will probably be OK. But personally I would not recommend this.

Running a fully enclosed and interlocked (ie fully compliant, and fully shielded, with an inaccessible beam) x-ray machine is where you ought to be at. So if you own a Tel-x-ometer, or an enclosed x-ray diffraction setup, or a Baggage/parcel scanner, and are competent in its use you are OK.

As for home builds, well, my advice is you make it compliant. Very compliant.

So at least the following:

The tube should be housed in lockable a metal cabinet (2mm of steel, and fully lined with at least 3mm of lead (for up to 50kV )).

To door of the cabinet must have at least one interlock switch, two is preferable. They should cut off the beam in the event of the door opening, and should not allow an immediate restart if the door is re closed.

The equipment must display the international ionising radiation warning sign.

The cabinet should have provided between it and the operator, an interlocked barrier or door, so it cannot be approached without interrupting the beam.

The power supply must display a warning light when switched on, and must display a second warning light when the beam is on. The supply must also incorporate a trapped key switch (ie the key cannot be removed in the "on" position).

This is how compliant my setup is.

Ash Small wrote ...

The fusor brigade get around this by saying that the neutrons and x-rays produced are a by-product of the fusion process, and a fusor is not designed for the purpose of producing them.

Saying your equipment is not designed to produce x-rays is not a get out. The IRR clearly states that any vacuum tube operating in excess of 5kV is considered an x-ray generator. Fusors generate a significant x-ray flux, and Neutron production has its own little chapter as far as ionising radiation goes.

The Fusor brigade 'get round' nothing, they are as liable as anyone running an x-ray machine, if not more so (the human body makes an excellent Neutron moderator). If the government comes knocking, you must be able to prove that reasonable precautions have been taken, and prove operator competence.

Sound like the voice of experience? It is.

Ash Small wrote ...

While I'm sure that the majority of UK radiography hobbyists have no criminal intent, the CPS 'may' consider otherwise. (for example, they 'may' consider hobbyists to be 'self employed'.)

Yes, they will absolutely consider you to be "self employed" if it suits, but you must also have committed an offence for them to prosecute you. So as I said, if you exposed someone by will or negligence, you would be likely up sh*t creek.

Yes x-rays are dangerous, as is any other facet of high voltage, or high energy electronics. For example, Tesla coils have in fact to my knowledge, killed three people in recent times.
Special steps should always be taken to ensure safety, with all aspects of this hobby but there is no reason why it cannot be enjoyed, and remain legal as long as people are sensible.

Les

Proud Mary

Wed Apr 13 2011, 06:25PM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

I agree with everything Plazmatron has said.

I will add only that some - but not all - of the more onerous HSE ionising radiation regulations are relaxed "at or below 50 kV."

And the good news? HSE regulation only starts at 5 keV, as Les has implied, so now's the time to spring clean all those beryllium windows!

Ash Small

Wed Apr 13 2011, 07:13PM

Registered Member #3414 Joined: Sun Nov 14 2010, 05:05PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4245

While I accept that the points that I repeated here that were originally made by members of the UK fusor community may well be erroneous (there is quite a lot of nonsense posted on fusor.net, as regular readers of that forum will be aware) I would like to reiterate that there is nothing to stop the CPS from deciding that a 'radiography hobbyist' 'self employed' and involved in 'research', for which prior authorisation (a license) is required.

How would one go about proving that this was not the case with a 'homebrew' device? (I appreciate that commercially produced letter scanners, etc wouldn't fall into this category)

(Or any vacuum system containing electrodes opersting at more than 5kV, ie ion beam, plasma processing, etc)

There is obviously a 'grey area' here.

Proud Mary

Wed Apr 13 2011, 08:04PM

Registered Member #543 Joined: Tue Feb 20 2007, 04:26PM
Location: UK
Posts: 4992

Ash Small wrote ...

I would like to reiterate that there is nothing to stop the CPS from deciding that a 'radiography hobbyist' 'self employed' and involved in 'research', for which prior authorisation (a license) is required.

A case would not originate with CPS but with HSE. You seem to be implying malicious prosecution, which seems to me far fetched.

Ash Small wrote ...

How would one go about proving that this was not the case with a 'homebrew' device?

The manufacturer of the device is irrelevant. What counts is whether, and to what extent, the device and all associated safety equipment including shielding and fail-safe PSU devices comply with IRR 1999 and current HSE guidelines. Having said as much, I should heed Plazmatron's warning that the owner of a 'homebew'
X-ray machine should make themselves doubly sure of its compliance - if it looks like an assemblage of old junk thrown together like a dog's breakfast, its chances may be less than average.

Ash Small wrote ...

There is obviously a 'grey area' here.

There is nothing mysterious about this. At heart, it is no different to an MOT certificate for a motor vehicle, a box-ticking exercise, except that the HSE Radiation Safety Officer may make recomendations on safety improvements, which, if not acted upon, could lead to further action including seizure of the offending apparatus, and prosecution in the last resort. But the HSE accent is very much on helping people keep going in a safer way, rather than looking for flimsy pretexts to take punitive action.

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